* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
@ 2017-12-03 23:19 Göktuğ Kayaalp
2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 0:06 ` Stefan Kangas
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2017-12-03 23:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 29550
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 9534 bytes --]
I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
accidentally, especially with the British keyboard layout where the key
with the apostrophe and the @ sign is adjacent to the key with the
number sign and tilde: Alt+Shift+<apostrophe> becomes M-@ (mark-word),
Alt+Shift+<number sign> becomes M-~ (not-modified). When Emacs is quit
without further modifying a buffer marked clean with this function, the
changes are lost. Certainly this scenario is not very probable, but
given that stuff like ‘upcase-region’ is disabled, I thought this one
can get disabled too. I was nearly bitten by this, and I'd count myself
as a relatively experienced user :)
Find attached a patch disabling this command.
In GNU Emacs 27.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.25)
of 2017-12-03 built on alpha
Repository revision: 9d7f0e27e0592132c1b5b9c280192333eaf288b8
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11905000
System Description: Ubuntu 17.10
Recent messages:
next-line: End of buffer
Modification-flag cleared
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Mark set
Saving file /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org...
Wrote /home/g/co/Playground/django/Readme.org
Type "q" in help window to restore its previous buffer.
Mark set
C-, is undefined [2 times]
Configured using:
'configure --prefix=/home/g/local --with-x-toolkit=yes --with-modules
--with-file-notification=yes --without-threads --with-gameuser=no
--with-mailutils'
Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG IMAGEMAGICK SOUND GPM DBUS GSETTINGS NOTIFY
ACL LIBSELINUX GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE M17N_FLT LIBOTF XFT ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 MODULES LCMS2
Important settings:
value of $LC_MESSAGES: en_GB.UTF-8
value of $LC_MONETARY: tr_TR.UTF-8
value of $LC_NUMERIC: tr_TR.UTF-8
value of $LC_TIME: tr_TR.UTF-8
value of $LANG: en_GB.UTF-8
locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
Major mode: Org
Minor modes in effect:
diff-auto-refine-mode: t
auto-image-file-mode: t
show-paren-mode: t
persistent-scratch-autosave-mode: t
winner-mode: t
global-whitespace-mode: t
save-place-mode: t
eval-sexp-fu-flash-mode: t
url-handler-mode: t
auto-insert-mode: t
global-undo-tree-mode: t
undo-tree-mode: t
global-paren-face-mode: t
global-gk-minor-mode: t
gk-minor-mode: t
gk-utf8-entry-mode: t
shell-dirtrack-mode: t
tooltip-mode: t
global-eldoc-mode: t
eldoc-mode: t
electric-quote-mode: t
mouse-wheel-mode: t
menu-bar-mode: t
file-name-shadow-mode: t
global-font-lock-mode: t
font-lock-mode: t
blink-cursor-mode: t
auto-composition-mode: t
auto-encryption-mode: t
auto-compression-mode: t
line-number-mode: t
auto-fill-function: org-auto-fill-function
global-visual-line-mode: t
visual-line-mode: t
transient-mark-mode: t
Load-path shadows:
/home/g/co/emacs.d/gk/gk-unilat hides /home/g/co/elisp/gk-unilat
/home/g/co/emacs.d/lisp/bsdpkg hides /home/g/co/elisp/bsdpkg
/home/g/co/emacs.d/gk/gk-greek hides /home/g/co/elisp/gk-greek
Features:
(shadow sort vc-filewise mailalias mail-extr emacsbug misearch
multi-isearch cl-print debug info python-django sql view hippie-exp
log-view eieio-opt speedbar sb-image ezimage dframe help-fns radix-tree
dabbrev cl-extra mhtml-mode css-mode color vc-git diff-mode vc-bzr
vc-src vc-sccs vc-svn vc-dir ewoc python tramp-sh pcmpl-unix org-eldoc
org-rmail org-mhe org-irc org-info org-gnus org-docview org-bibtex
bibtex org-bbdb org-w3m dired-aux image-file paren vc-hg init server gk
pass-listing password-store thinks boxquote gk-www gk-feeds gk-urls
elfeed-show elfeed-search elfeed-csv elfeed elfeed-curl elfeed-log
elfeed-db elfeed-lib xml-query gk-ui persistent-scratch pixel-scroll
desktop frameset time ido winner mono-theme elec-pair whitespace
saveplace goto-addr apropos gk-system man gk-multimedia gk-langenvs
gk-turkish gk-ibuffer ibuffer-vc ibuf-ext ibuffer ibuffer-loaddefs
gk-keys multiple-cursors mc-hide-unmatched-lines-mode
mc-separate-operations rectangular-region-mode mc-mark-pop mc-mark-more
mc-cycle-cursors mc-edit-lines multiple-cursors-core goto-last-change
gk-things gk-programming perl-mode inf-ruby ruby-mode smie js sgml-mode
cc-mode cc-fonts cc-guess cc-menus cc-cmds cc-styles cc-align cc-engine
cc-vars cc-defs slime-quicklisp slime-xref-browser tree-widget
slime-tramp slime-banner slime-asdf grep slime-mrepl inferior-slime
slime-fancy slime-trace-dialog slime-fontifying-fu slime-package-fu
slime-references slime-compiler-notes-tree slime-scratch
slime-presentations bridge slime-mdot-fu slime-enclosing-context
slime-fuzzy slime-fancy-trace slime-fancy-inspector slime-c-p-c
slime-editing-commands slime-autodoc slime-repl slime-parse slime
arc-mode archive-mode hyperspec scheme gk-outline eval-sexp-fu highlight
inf-lisp highlight-parentheses paredit gk-org org-caldav icalendar
diary-lib diary-loaddefs org-id url-dav url-http url-auth url-gw
url-handlers org-capture autoinsert ob-shell gk-vc vc-rcs vc-cvs vc
vc-dispatcher log-edit pcvs-util add-log ox-groff ox-beamer ox-odt
rng-loc rng-uri rng-parse rng-match rng-dt rng-util rng-pttrn nxml-parse
nxml-ns nxml-enc xmltok nxml-util ox-latex ox-icalendar ox-html table
ox-ascii ox-publish ox org-eww org-protocol org-mobile org-agenda
gk-org-cite gk-fonts gk-alist gk-mail rx spam spam-stat gnus-uu yenc
gnus-msg gnus-art mm-uu mml2015 mm-view mml-smime smime dig gnus-sum
gnus-group gnus-undo gnus-start gnus-cloud nnimap nnmail tls gnutls utf7
nnoo gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range gnus-win mail-source smtpmail
sendmail netrc message rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode
mail-parse rfc2231 gmm-utils mailheader gk-utils gk-files nsm rmc
tramp-cache tramp tramp-compat tramp-loaddefs trampver parse-time etags
xref project f s ucs-normalize epa-mail epa epg epg-config bbdb-vcard
bbdb-com crm mailabbrev vcard bbdb bbdb-site timezone gk-lingua gk-evil
evil evil-integration undo-tree diff evil-maps evil-commands flyspell
evil-jumps evil-command-window evil-types evil-search evil-ex
evil-macros evil-repeat evil-states evil-core evil-common windmove
thingatpt evil-digraphs evil-vars ace-jump-mode gk-globals forecast
derived subr-x json map solar cal-dst whole-line-or-region paren-face
gk-minor-mode face-remap gk-file gk-mac gk-text zencoding-mode cl
copyright ispell lorem-ipsum gk-utf8 gk-input-methods gk-unilat
gk-syriac gk-greek gk-armenian quail help-mode gk-global-modes eww puny
mm-url gnus nnheader gnus-util rmail rmail-loaddefs rfc2047 rfc2045
ietf-drums mail-utils mm-util mail-prsvr url-queue url url-proxy
url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie url-domsuf
url-util url-parse auth-source password-cache url-vars mailcap shr svg
xml seq dom browse-url diminish gk-edit rect gk-documents pdf-sync
pdf-annot tablist tablist-filter semantic/wisent/comp semantic/wisent
semantic/wisent/wisent semantic/util-modes semantic/util semantic
semantic/tag semantic/lex semantic/fw eieio byte-opt bytecomp
byte-compile cconv eieio-core eieio-loaddefs mode-local cedet
org-element avl-tree generator org org-macro org-footnote org-pcomplete
org-list org-faces org-entities org-version ob-emacs-lisp ob ob-tangle
org-src ob-ref ob-lob ob-table ob-keys ob-exp ob-comint ob-core ob-eval
org-compat org-macs org-loaddefs find-func cal-menu calendar
cal-loaddefs pdf-outline pdf-links noutline outline easy-mmode
pdf-isearch let-alist pdf-misc imenu pdf-tools compile cus-edit
cus-start cus-load wid-edit pdf-view bookmark pp pdf-cache pdf-info tq
pdf-util advice doc-view jka-compr gk-dired dired-subtree
dired-hacks-utils dash ls-lisp wdired image-dired image-mode format-spec
dired-x easymenu dired dired-loaddefs gk-crypt gk-comint cl-macs shell
pcomplete edmacro kmacro comint ansi-color ring gk-backups cl-seq
cl-loaddefs cl-lib gv time-date mule-util tooltip eldoc electric
uniquify ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode elisp-mode lisp-mode
prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch timer select
scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core
term/tty-colors frame cl-generic cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang
vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932
hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic
chinese composite charscript charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook
help simple abbrev obarray minibuffer cl-preloaded nadvice loaddefs
button faces cus-face macroexp files text-properties overlay sha1 md5
base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget hashtable-print-readable
backquote dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty
make-network-process emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 670113 103572)
(symbols 48 64645 1)
(miscs 40 3205 3055)
(strings 32 179959 15217)
(string-bytes 1 5761193)
(vectors 16 102310)
(vector-slots 8 2221053 113258)
(floats 8 987 1963)
(intervals 56 9406 112)
(buffers 992 67))
--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp <http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-lisp-files.el-not-modified-Disable-this-function.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 748 bytes --]
From 8044f65e774d3a1640f1f2f67e044ffa75991206 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: =?UTF-8?q?=C4=B0=2E=20G=C3=B6ktu=C4=9F=20Kayaalp?= <self@gkayaalp.com>
Date: Mon, 4 Dec 2017 02:13:25 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] * lisp/files.el (not-modified) Disable this function.
---
lisp/files.el | 2 ++
1 file changed, 2 insertions(+)
diff --git a/lisp/files.el b/lisp/files.el
index 205001e5d5..0160ab9939 100644
--- a/lisp/files.el
+++ b/lisp/files.el
@@ -5301,6 +5301,8 @@ not-modified
"Modification-flag cleared"))
(set-buffer-modified-p arg))
+(put 'not-modified 'disabled t)
+
(defun toggle-read-only (&optional arg interactive)
"Change whether this buffer is read-only."
(declare (obsolete read-only-mode "24.3"))
--
2.14.1
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-03 23:19 bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default Göktuğ Kayaalp
@ 2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
2017-12-05 9:49 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2019-09-29 0:06 ` Stefan Kangas
1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2017-12-04 3:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Göktuğ Kayaalp; +Cc: 29550
> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
>
> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
> accidentally
FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
Just one data point.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
2017-12-05 10:06 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2018-04-15 19:06 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2017-12-05 9:49 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2017-12-04 17:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp, 29550
Previous times this came up:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
(a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
(previous maintainer)
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
(previous+N maintainer)
Obviously, this calls for a poll!
(Please don't have a poll.)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2017-12-05 10:06 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2018-04-15 19:06 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2017-12-05 10:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: 29550
On 2017-12-04 12:58 -05, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)
Here we have a *maintainer* that has lost some data accidentally hitting
this key.
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)
Why not? It might be the case that this command has now became less
popular (for example it's not mentioned in the C-h t tutorial). Given
how easy it's to re-enable it for its users, I see no reason for not
disabling it by default for protecting the uninitiated. Quoting
"(emacs) Disabling":
,----
| Disabling a command means that invoking it interactively asks for
| confirmation from the user. The purpose of disabling a command is to
| prevent users from executing it by accident; we do this for commands
| that might be confusing to the uninitiated.
`----
(on a side note, shouldn't ‘en/disable-command’ use ‘custom-file’ or
‘user-init-file’ instead of trying to locate .emacs itself?)
--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp <http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
2017-12-05 10:06 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
@ 2018-04-15 19:06 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2018-04-15 19:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp, 29550
Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> Previous times this came up:
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> (previous maintainer)
>
> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> (previous+N maintainer)
>
> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>
> (Please don't have a poll.)
:-)
I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default. It's a
lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
disabled...
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2017-12-05 9:49 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2017-12-05 9:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 29550
On 2017-12-04 05:37 +02, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
>> Date: Mon, 04 Dec 2017 02:19:45 +0300
>>
>> I suggest that the command ‘not-modified’, bound by default to ‘M-~’, be
>> disabled by default, as it can cause data loss and is easily triggered
>> accidentally
>
> FWIW, I use this command many times every day, with no data loss.
> Just one data point.
>
There probably are some disabled commands that each of us use all the
time. ‘erase-buffer’, ‘upcase-region’ and ‘downcase-region’ are some
for me. I think ‘not-modified’ is at least as risky as those commands
given it can be hit accidentally, maybe more easily, as I've said
previously, for someone using a keyboard where tilde is easily
(mis-)typed (in my British layout keyboard it's just to the left of the
big return button: jkl;' then #/~), and indeed would be «confusing for
beginners», quoting the disabled command buffer. Also, from Glenn
Morris' message in this thread, there seems to be two other times in
history where a similar request to mine has been made. If my patch is
refused I'll just have it disabled in my config, but I truly think that
this command, bound to a non-prefixed binding in the global map, is
potentially confusing and dangerous for who doesn't already know it,
beginner or not; if we have upcase/downcase-region disabled, this should
be disabled too.
--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp <http://www.gkayaalp.com/>
024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2017-12-03 23:19 bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default Göktuğ Kayaalp
2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-09-29 0:06 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-09-29 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2019-09-29 0:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp, 29550
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1110 bytes --]
tags 29550 + patch
quit
Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> Previous times this came up:
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
>> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
>> (previous maintainer)
>>
>> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
>> (previous+N maintainer)
>>
>> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
>>
>> (Please don't have a poll.)
>
> :-)
>
> I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default. It's a
> lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> disabled...
I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
it should be disabled.
I don't really understand the basic controversy here. It should at
worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
it could save many other users some big headaches.
So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
objections to the attached patch?
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Disable-not-modified-command-by-default.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 892 bytes --]
From d676fbb543c04a7f258f564214812a627e609000 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:02:06 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Disable not-modified command by default
* lisp/files.el (not-modified): Disable command by
default. (Bug#29550)
---
lisp/files.el | 3 +++
1 file changed, 3 insertions(+)
diff --git a/lisp/files.el b/lisp/files.el
index 09180fd555..f3bb23738d 100644
--- a/lisp/files.el
+++ b/lisp/files.el
@@ -5537,6 +5537,9 @@ clear-visited-file-modtime
Next attempt to save will not complain of a discrepancy."
(set-visited-file-modtime 0))
+;; This command could cause data loss for unsuspecting users.
+(put 'not-modified 'disabled t)
+
(defun not-modified (&optional arg)
"Mark current buffer as unmodified, not needing to be saved.
With prefix ARG, mark buffer as modified, so \\[save-buffer] will save.
--
2.20.1
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 0:06 ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2019-09-29 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 7:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
0 siblings, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-09-29 7:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: self, larsi, 29550
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 02:06:55 +0200
> Cc: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>,
> 29550@debbugs.gnu.org, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
>
> >> Previous times this came up:
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2005-04/msg00182.html
> >> (a prolific and, err, idiosyncratic reporter)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00414.html
> >> (previous maintainer)
> >>
> >> http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2006-02/msg00395.html
> >> (previous+N maintainer)
> >>
> >> Obviously, this calls for a poll!
> >>
> >> (Please don't have a poll.)
> >
> > :-)
> >
> > I think it makes sense to have this command disabled by default. It's a
> > lot more dangerous than several of the other commands that are
> > disabled...
>
> I agree with Lars here, and Stefan Monnier in the above thread, that
> it should be disabled.
>
> I don't really understand the basic controversy here. It should at
> worst be a minor inconvenience for anyone who do wish to use it, while
> it could save many other users some big headaches.
The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
> So I'll just jump in at the deep end and ask... Are there any
> objections to the attached patch?
The previous discussions provide objections, don't they?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-09-29 7:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-09-29 7:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Stefan Kangas @ 2019-09-29 7:35 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp, Lars Ingebrigtsen, 29550
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
OK, that makes sense. If that's a common use case, disabling it by
default might be more trouble than it's worth.
I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
against this proposal clear.
Best regards,
Stefan Kangas
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 7:35 ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2019-09-29 7:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-09-29 7:59 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Stefan Kangas; +Cc: self, larsi, 29550
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 09:35:32 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>, Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>,
> 29550@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> I suggest to close this bug report as wontfix to make the decision
> against this proposal clear.
Fine with me, thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 7:35 ` Stefan Kangas
@ 2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2019-09-29 8:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 8:58 ` Andreas Schwab
1 sibling, 2 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2019-09-29 8:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: self, Stefan Kangas, 29550
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?
I mean, the same argumentation could be used for a number of disabled
commands, like `narrow-to-region' which I use a lot and always have to
re-enable when I'm working in -Q. And `not-modified' is much more
dangerous for users than `narrow-to-region', especially since it's bound
to a key people may hit by accident (`M-~'), while `narrow-to-region' is
much more difficult to do so with.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2019-09-29 8:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 8:58 ` Andreas Schwab
1 sibling, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-09-29 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: self, stefan, 29550
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>, rgm@gnu.org, self@gkayaalp.com,
> 29550@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2019 10:01:48 +0200
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
> > lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
> > default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
>
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?
I just explained what's the controversy, that's all.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2019-09-29 8:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2019-09-29 8:58 ` Andreas Schwab
2019-09-29 10:05 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
1 sibling, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Andreas Schwab @ 2019-09-29 8:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: self, 29550, Stefan Kangas
On Sep 29 2019, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> The basic controversy here, from my POV, is that I use "emacs -Q" a
>> lot when working on bug reports, and having this command disabled by
>> default will be a nuisance because I use it VERY often.
>
> Taking us poor people who work on Emacs into consideration is nice, but
> shouldn't we prioritise how this works for the users?
How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?
Andreas.
--
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510 2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 8:58 ` Andreas Schwab
@ 2019-09-29 10:05 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2019-10-04 18:38 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2019-09-29 10:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Andreas Schwab; +Cc: self, 29550, Stefan Kangas
Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?
That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
"emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.
But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
testing with -Q.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-09-29 10:05 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2019-10-04 18:38 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2019-10-04 19:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Göktuğ Kayaalp @ 2019-10-04 18:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 29550, schwab, stefan
On 2019-09-29 12:05 +02, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote:
> Andreas Schwab <schwab@linux-m68k.org> writes:
>> How about adding a command that reenables all disabled commands?
> That's possible, but I was also wondering whether there should be an
> "emacs -Q-but-not-so-much" (or whatever) switch to Emacs, or a standard
> common-maintainer-things.el file one could load.
>
> But that's probably an endless rabbit hole to go down into, so I think
> we should just settle on saying "-l my-maintainer-things.el"
> individually for whatever we think is too annoying to deal with when
> testing with -Q.
Or, a flag like --maintainer-mode that enables all commands _and_
implies -Q and "-l $EMACS_MAINTAINER_RC" if found?
Frankly, I see no reason this issue is controversial: the command has
caused data loss for multiple people; accidental data loss and data
corruption is the worst thing that can happen to you in personal
computing, and accidentally hitting M-~ causes accidental data
loss/corruption in a very confusing way. "(emacs) Disabling" states:
> The purpose of disabling a command is to prevent users from executing
> it by accident; we do this for commands that might be confusing to the
> uninitiated.
In this light, it’s rather obvious what to do: protect users by
disabling this command. The sole argument for keeping it enabled is
essentially the convenience of a single person.
Also, something like this
emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
or ‘emacs-Q’.
--
İ. Göktuğ Kayaalp <https://www.gkayaalp.com/>
024C 30DD 597D 142B 49AC
40EB 465C D949 B101 2427
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-10-04 18:38 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
@ 2019-10-04 19:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-10 14:02 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
0 siblings, 1 reply; 17+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2019-10-04 19:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Göktuğ Kayaalp; +Cc: 29550, schwab, larsi, stefan
> From: Göktuğ Kayaalp <self@gkayaalp.com>
> Cc: schwab@linux-m68k.org, eliz@gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se,
> 29550@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 04 Oct 2019 21:38:32 +0300
>
> Also, something like this
>
> emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
>
> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
> or ‘emacs-Q’.
It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
* bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default
2019-10-04 19:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2020-08-10 14:02 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
0 siblings, 0 replies; 17+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2020-08-10 14:02 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: Göktuğ Kayaalp, 29550, stefan, schwab
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> Also, something like this
>>
>> emacs -Q -e "(enable-command 'not-modified)"
>>
>> works for Eli’s case, you could just alias it to something like ‘emacsq’
>> or ‘emacs-Q’.
>
> It's too late for me to re-train my muscle memory.
It seems that we're not going to convince Eli of the real dangers of the
`M-~' command for Emacs users, so I'm closing this bug report.
--
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 17+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2020-08-10 14:02 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 17+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2017-12-03 23:19 bug#29550: 27.0.50; `not-modified' should be disabled by default Göktuğ Kayaalp
2017-12-04 3:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2017-12-04 17:58 ` Glenn Morris
2017-12-05 10:06 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2018-04-15 19:06 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2017-12-05 9:49 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2019-09-29 0:06 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-09-29 7:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 7:35 ` Stefan Kangas
2019-09-29 7:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 8:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2019-09-29 8:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2019-09-29 8:58 ` Andreas Schwab
2019-09-29 10:05 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2019-10-04 18:38 ` Göktuğ Kayaalp
2019-10-04 19:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-08-10 14:02 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).