From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:48:18 -0800 Message-ID: References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> <83mw2abul3.fsf@gnu.org> <552D34BC.4090806@yandex.ru> <83h9sibt0q.fsf@gnu.org> <552D7796.2090109@yandex.ru> <567EA3EB.7030007@yandex.ru> <5683C498.9060300@yandex.ru> <5683CAD0.6020609@yandex.ru> <568475A0.20609@yandex.ru> <56848453.9090002@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451530164 10467 80.91.229.3 (31 Dec 2015 02:49:24 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:49:24 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322-done@debbugs.gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 31 03:49:13 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aETIf-0005km-At for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 03:49:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54457 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aETId-0003ZF-Vy for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:49:11 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:36796) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aETIa-0003Z6-ED for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:49:09 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aETIU-0004wj-Pv for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:49:08 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:43197) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aETIU-0004wa-MK for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:49:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aETIU-0002QV-Hc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:49:02 -0500 Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-To: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:49:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: cc-closed 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Mail-Followup-To: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org, jwiegley@gmail.com, dgutov@yandex.ru Original-Received: via spool by 20322-done@debbugs.gnu.org id=D20322.14515301119247 (code D ref 20322); Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:49:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322-done) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2015 02:48:31 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50792 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aETHz-0002P5-Ax for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:48:31 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pa0-f49.google.com ([209.85.220.49]:36652) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aETHx-0002Om-11 for 20322-done@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 21:48:29 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pa0-f49.google.com with SMTP id yy13so53565827pab.3 for <20322-done@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:48:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=Y2al4nHQ7wfxblWwoKRFw22Pad2GJSUGQO+7NB3N8hk=; b=aD6j5jnnargqa9OvMNMZzQKYrgg15WGMRPmVn78Ob5GTZ8Ym0Ofk/FCJTlC55RXaix 7KILz1c2ypub/r9FIsOrt56YZ9oXyAnaeIMFzO0fKTLAq3a75ucdYKNKJiK9QwfC4VQN 0IKOCr0fQKScqo2xs4EPHDEIX36iDy4QTLq8ezu0FH7CoK+qEOb5QIKs/tiGuN02TMqV lEvaJrMgL6JOZvMEk26T7lUt6zkybskoDP1maXm3O4HQCphf4nS0RGJMRpPVYsCFZKCe id3VZvMDh/Jd75EvSaZhHZsmqMvRUC8T2QvUXHR62TvgDYbfdDgcb0p1xTDY9aKYI+f4 S3PA== X-Received: by 10.66.252.6 with SMTP id zo6mr31588733pac.154.1451530103295; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:48:23 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p17sm63730579pfi.54.2015.12.30.18.48.21 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:48:21 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id A5BEE11F65F7E; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 18:48:20 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <56848453.9090002@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2015 03:26:43 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:111056 Archived-At: >>>>> Dmitry Gutov writes: > I can't imagine it happening otherwise. What else? Tab-fueled users' > rebellion on Emacs mailing lists? You're forgetting one thing: One cannot, by casual observation, tell that this change has been made, since both spaces and tabs are invisible. I'll tell you a little story. I'm making it up, but it's more probable than you might think. Imagine a programmer: we'll call him Joe. Joe works in a Java shop that mandates the use of tabs in source files. They exist. I've worked in such shops. Joe is fine with this, because Emacs inserts tab characters; so he happily goes about his task. He then sees that Emacs 25.1 comes out, and upgrades. After all, a newer Emacs just means more good stuff, right? However, without any indication (who reads the entire NEWS file? I don't), his TAB key now inserts spaces. Joe doesn't know this, because everything appears exactly the same. But the head engineer who reads every diff notices. He storms into Joe's office, wondering why he's suddenly ignoring the coding standard. Joe has no idea way, and everyone is mystified for a moment. A quick Google explains the reason. Now Joe has lost face, and he's lost some trust in Emacs, because why did we make such a change? Can't people who don't want tabs just configure *their* Emacs, he thinks to himself? And most of all, he'll be upset with me for letting this happen on my watch. Everyone who uses Emacs and would be made happy by this change, has already configured their Emacs not to use tabs. So they won't notice. Everyone who doesn't use Emacs and would be made happy by this change, won't know that things were different before. So they won't notice. The people who will, finally, notice, will be everyone like Joe who came to depend on their environment not changing long-held defaults without notice. Therefore, I'm closing this as "wontfix". Feel free to re-open when the next maintainer arrives. Take this as also establishing a general policy of not changing long-held defaults without compelling reasons, rather than what we think people will want. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2