From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: John Wiegley Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:13 -0800 Message-ID: References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> <83mw2abul3.fsf@gnu.org> <552D34BC.4090806@yandex.ru> <83h9sibt0q.fsf@gnu.org> <552D7796.2090109@yandex.ru> <567EA3EB.7030007@yandex.ru> <5683C498.9060300@yandex.ru> <5683CAD0.6020609@yandex.ru> <568475A0.20609@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1451524703 32182 80.91.229.3 (31 Dec 2015 01:18:23 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 01:18:23 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org To: Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Thu Dec 31 02:18:12 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsa-0004rM-7g for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:18:12 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54302 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsY-0006nT-BG for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:18:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53868) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsU-0006nD-UE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:18:08 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsP-0008M1-VN for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:18:06 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:43163) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsP-0008Lx-QI for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:18:01 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aERsP-0008RY-Lx for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:18:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: John Wiegley Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 31 Dec 2015 01:18:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20322-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20322.145152464532402 (code B ref 20322); Thu, 31 Dec 2015 01:18:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322) by debbugs.gnu.org; 31 Dec 2015 01:17:25 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50765 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aERro-0008QY-LA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:17:24 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pf0-f169.google.com ([209.85.192.169]:33133) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84) (envelope-from ) id 1aERrm-0008QE-KC for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 20:17:23 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pf0-f169.google.com with SMTP id q63so112915697pfb.0 for <20322@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:22 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:in-reply-to:date:message-id:references :user-agent:mime-version:content-type; bh=JBdoneoLFKXnQS2yTS9AWAgTOuNFigRnr0HAQJ6BJeY=; b=cWvK3iuu6ZjFOB8fPcm67AkSwYUb/PyOjbO2d1eXRJGgdYpNgD6IaaYcARJNXE+QxR lBggW767H6SQkm5SXqEZa2wKGvDFVBWGkiFOK8Y7IX0foewSALzximwwz6G9khoYkk+A PCKvlPAAMaionaRyimkiekbt68cN8hAJwb2Ce4ary86v4xWmBDtBklJHmijwJnlvabEP zkXcENBXzaeiA30rusDKroGSkriE/Cte+n0U4BQuCW5SreD6oI48TsfVaAiEAfQscLCz 4XEmo3eSiQ+9RPS+ZBejliW9Z1Kpbeipudtt/cswWc1Pp+qwJnwcIducWq1BduoX9YXC ziDQ== X-Received: by 10.98.7.210 with SMTP id 79mr97041952pfh.98.1451524636983; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:16 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from Vulcan.local (76-234-68-79.lightspeed.frokca.sbcglobal.net. [76.234.68.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id v11sm44744012pfa.81.2015.12.30.17.17.15 (version=TLS1 cipher=AES128-SHA bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:15 -0800 (PST) X-Google-Original-From: "John Wiegley" Original-Received: by Vulcan.local (Postfix, from userid 501) id BE28511F6594B; Wed, 30 Dec 2015 17:17:14 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <568475A0.20609@yandex.ru> (Dmitry Gutov's message of "Thu, 31 Dec 2015 02:24:00 +0200") User-Agent: Gnus/5.130014 (Ma Gnus v0.14) Emacs/24.5 (darwin) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:111054 Archived-At: >>>>> Dmitry Gutov writes: > What's so confusing about it? They'll see the new behavior (or read NEWS), > look it up, and customize one variable, if they really want to. Unlike new > users, they might know the variable already, and they certainly know how to > customize. I don't believe this is a realistic assessment of what will happen. I just don't. > We don't actually know how many people it's going to be a problem for, do > we? For all we know, most of the existing users already use spaces (the > third-party community has standardized on them). And some fraction will be > indifferent to the change. We don't know too many things, that's the point. You're suggesting an improvement based on what you think will be an improvement, while causing difficulties that you don't think will be worse overall. But why change? What is the driving factor behind this request? Do we know we're actively losing users because we insert tabs when one presses the TAB key -- to such an extent that changing this default will keep those users? Is the change important enough that it's OK to annoy the people (our existing users) who will be surprised by this change? Otherwise, it sounds like a theoretical improvement to me, which is not enough to convince me in matters like this. > If it were up to me, we'd try changing the default during the development > cycle of Emacs 26, and see how many complaints we get. You're welcome to poll, but I don't think you'd reach everyone that needs reaching. It would, however, at least be a data point. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2