bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Glenn Morris]

Package: emacs
Version: 24.4
Severity: minor

The tex-verbatim face is defined as

   '((t :family "courier"))

Is this a good idea?

AFAICS, it is the only face definition in Emacs that specifies a :family.
It seems to cause problems on some systems, see:

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=684797


For me on RHEL7, that faces looks poor (blocky/pixellated) compared to
the other faces Emacs uses.

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Stefan Monnier]

> The tex-verbatim face is defined as
>    '((t :family "courier"))
> Is this a good idea?

I think/thought so.

> AFAICS, it is the only face definition in Emacs that specifies a :family.

There's also

   (defface Info-quoted
     '((t :family "courier"))
     "Face used for quoted elements.")

> It seems to cause problems on some systems, see:
> https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=684797
> For me on RHEL7, that faces looks poor (blocky/pixellated) compared to
> the other faces Emacs uses.

Maybe we should improve face-font-family-alternatives so as to
automatically find a better courier-like font?

Maybe we also should define a standard/core face for this, which is then
inherited by both tex-verbatim and Info-quoted.


        Stefan

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> There's also
>
>    (defface Info-quoted
>      '((t :family "courier"))
>      "Face used for quoted elements.")

I see that's relatively new, and only in master.

> Maybe we should improve face-font-family-alternatives so as to
> automatically find a better courier-like font?
>
> Maybe we also should define a standard/core face for this, which is then
> inherited by both tex-verbatim and Info-quoted.

Maybe.
FWIW tex-verbatim looks ok on Debian testing, but as I said not so good
on RHEL7.

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Stefan Monnier]

> FWIW tex-verbatim looks ok on Debian testing, but as I said not so good
> on RHEL7.

I did see that, and as I said, this should be fixed by adding an
appropriate replacement to face-font-family-alternatives.


        Stefan

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Glenn Morris]

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C-u C-x = tells me that the font Emacs picks for tex-verbatim is

   x:-adobe-courier-medium-r-normal--14-140-75-75-m-90-USO8859-1 (#x6D)

So presumably the problem is that it picks an x font rather than an xft one.
See attached image for how it looks clunky in info.
(I don't normally use Emacs trunk or makeinfo 5, so haven't noticed this
before.)

Firefox just uses "Monospace" font.
Gnome-terminal has "use the system fixed-with font".
IIUC, fc-match tells me that monspace == DejaVu Sans Mono.

I know little about fonts, but it seems suboptimal to me to try and
specify a family for a handful of faces, since it's impossible to
predict how it will look in conjunction with the user's other fonts.


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bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Mark Oteiza]

Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:

> Package: emacs
> Version: 24.4
> Severity: minor
>
> The tex-verbatim face is defined as
>
>    '((t :family "courier"))
>
> Is this a good idea?
>
> AFAICS, it is the only face definition in Emacs that specifies a :family.

Info-quoted also does this.

Looking at `grep -iIR ':family "cou' *`, it looks like those are the
only two.

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Mark Oteiza]

On 18/02/15 at 03:51pm, Mark Oteiza wrote:
> Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org> writes:
> > AFAICS, it is the only face definition in Emacs that specifies a :family.
> 
> Info-quoted also does this.
> 
> Looking at `grep -iIR ':family "cou' *`, it looks like those are the
> only two.

I should have read ahead, sorry.

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Stefan Monnier]

> So presumably the problem is that it picks an x font rather than an xft one.
> See attached image for how it looks clunky in info.

Yes, that's the usual cause for blocky fonts.

> Firefox just uses "Monospace" font.

When/where?

> Gnome-terminal has "use the system fixed-with font".

How's that relevant for tex-verbatim or Info-quoted?

> IIUC, fc-match tells me that monspace == DejaVu Sans Mono.

For tex-verbatim, it shouldn't just be monospaced, but should look
somewhat like TeX's verbatim font (i.e. old typewriter style, i.e. courier).

For Info-quoted, it's not indispensable that it looks like courier, but
it should look different from the default font (by default).  IIUC the
default font nowadays is a monospaced sans-serif font, so I chose
a monospaced font with serif.

> I know little about fonts, but it seems suboptimal to me to try and
> specify a family for a handful of faces, since it's impossible to
> predict how it will look in conjunction with the user's other fonts.

I think we should define a `fixed-width-with-serif' face and inherit
from that, to make the intention clear.


        Stefan

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> Firefox just uses "Monospace" font.
>
> When/where?

edit/prefs/content/advanced

>> Gnome-terminal has "use the system fixed-with font".
>
> How's that relevant for tex-verbatim or Info-quoted?

"Person who know nothing about fonts tries to provide potentially
relevant information from other applications where the fonts look better
than the one Emacs picked." :)

bug#19889: tex-verbatim face: don't specify :family?

[Glenn Morris]

Eli Zaretskii wrote:

> Is what you see similar to what's shown on the image attached to
> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=19889#15?  If so, can you
> explain what is your problem with that display? 

That face looks poor compared to all the others.
If you don't agree with me, fine, please just close this as wontfix,
since I've said everything I can possibly say on this subject already
and it doesn't seem to bother others.