* bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: @ 2009-04-15 6:41 ` Drew Adams 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier ` (2 more replies) 0 siblings, 3 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2009-04-15 6:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-pretest-bug Emacs calls regexp groups that use the grouping construct "(?:" "shy groups". I don't get the impression that that is a common term for this construct, outside Emacs. Googling "shy group" shows only Emacs hits. Googling and searching for regexp groups shows that terms such as "non-capturing group" and "unnumbered group" are more typically used for "(?:". And the Emacs doc for "(?:" even explains it as an unnumbered group. It doesn't explain or hint at the meaning of "shy" at all. This seems like a poor choice of words. "Shy" might already have become the Emacs "traditional" terminology, so that it can't easily be replaced (some people will look for it). But at least some explanation of the use of the word "shy" is in order, if only for mnemonic purposes. What were you thinking? ;-) (Perhaps it is translated from some other language, where it has more than one meaning?) More importantly, this construct does not appear to be indexed in the manual. It should be indexed under "(: in regexp", as well as under "regexp non-capturing group" and "regexp unnumbered group" - and of course "regexp shy group", if that term is kept. In GNU Emacs 23.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-03-30 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)' ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: 2009-04-15 6:41 ` bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Drew Adams @ 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 14:45 ` Andreas Schwab 2009-04-15 14:57 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 22:00 ` bug#3001: marked as done (23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?:) Emacs bug Tracking System 2 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 13:32 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: emacs-pretest-bug, 3001 > Emacs calls regexp groups that use the grouping construct "(?:" "shy > groups". I don't get the impression that that is a common term for > this construct, outside Emacs. IIRC I did not invent the term, instead I took it from Perl. But I must admit that I cannot find that term in "man perlre", so I'm not sure where precisely I found it. It's just the name had'd heard used to describe this feature of Perl. Maybe XEmacs's use of the term was an influence as well. > Googling "shy group" shows only Emacs hits. Indeed, it does, yet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_regular_expression_engines has "shy groups" in its chart. Indeed googling « "shy groups" perl » should more than 500 hits, whereas « "shy groups" emacs » shows less than 200. Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 14:45 ` Andreas Schwab 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Andreas Schwab @ 2009-04-15 14:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Stefan Monnier; +Cc: emacs-pretest-bug, 3001 Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> writes: > Indeed googling « "shy groups" perl » should more than 500 hits, Though if you add `-emacs -xemacs' to the query almost nothing is left. Andreas. -- Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org GPG Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756 01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5 "And now for something completely different." ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: 2009-04-15 6:41 ` bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Drew Adams 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 14:57 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 15:41 ` Drew Adams 2009-04-15 22:00 ` bug#3001: marked as done (23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?:) Emacs bug Tracking System 2 siblings, 1 reply; 6+ messages in thread From: Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 14:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Drew Adams; +Cc: 3001 > But at least some explanation of the use of the word "shy" is in > order, if only for mnemonic purposes. What were you thinking? ;-) I really don't know what I was thinking, sorry, nor what "they" were thinking. I could guess at an rationalisation; e.g. "yo' mama's so shy she doesn't even dare to get a number". > (Perhaps it is translated from some other language, where it has more > than one meaning?) My attempt of humor is indeed translated from an unknown language where it sounds even less funny. > More importantly, this construct does not appear to be indexed in the > manual. It should be indexed under "(: in regexp", as well as under > "regexp non-capturing group" and "regexp unnumbered group" - and of > course "regexp shy group", if that term is kept. It is indexed under "shy group, in regexp". I don't know if chars like "(?:" can be used in a Texinfo index without first sacrificing a few virgins. I'm not sure if it's likely that someone will look for "non-capturing" or "unnumbered" groups (i.e. would someone look for the syntax to use for that feature, rather than look for the feature associated to that syntax?). Stefan ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: 2009-04-15 14:57 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 15:41 ` Drew Adams 0 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Drew Adams @ 2009-04-15 15:41 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 'Stefan Monnier'; +Cc: 3001 > > But at least some explanation of the use of the word "shy" is in > > order, if only for mnemonic purposes. What were you thinking? ;-) > > I really don't know what I was thinking, sorry, nor what "they" > were thinking. I could guess at an rationalisation; e.g. "yo' mama's > so shy she doesn't even dare to get a number". I didn't mean anyone in particular by "you". What I meant is that if we use a term such as this, we should give some hint as to what is meant by the term itself. IOW, let users know why it's called "shy". Why? (1) It helps understanding, by letting them know they are not missing something. (2) It helps memory, for later lookup. (3) It helps them understand when they read other doc sections that might refer to the term without explanation. > > (Perhaps it is translated from some other language, where > > it has more than one meaning?) > > My attempt of humor is indeed translated from an unknown > language where it sounds even less funny. Oh, so "shy" was supposed to be funny? Was it also supposed to mean something? Anyway, ca ne me dit rien. > > More importantly, this construct does not appear to be > > indexed in the manual. It should be indexed under "(: > > in regexp", as well as under "regexp non-capturing group" > > and "regexp unnumbered group" - and of > > course "regexp shy group", if that term is kept. > > It is indexed under "shy group, in regexp". It is? I don't see that in Emacs 23 pretest 2 (the version I reported on). These are all of the index entries that contain the string "regexp": $ in regexp ( in regexp ) in regexp * in regexp + in regexp . in regexp ? in regexp ad-activate-regexp ad-deactivate-regexp ad-disable-regexp ad-enable-regexp ad-update-regexp adaptive-fill-first-line-regexp adaptive-fill-regexp auto-coding-regexp-alist beginning of line in regexp character alternative (in regexp) character classes in regexp completion-regexp-list defun-prompt-regexp end of line in regexp invalid-regexp non-greedy repetition characters in regexp read-regexp regexp regexp alternative regexp grouping regexp searching regexp-history regexp-opt regexp-opt-depth regexp-quote regexps used standardly in editing replace-regexp-in-string same-window-regexps search-spaces-regexp searching for regexp sort-regexp-fields special-display-regexps standard regexps used in editing [ in regexp \ in regexp \' in regexp \< in regexp \= in regexp \> in regexp \b in regexp \B in regexp \s in regexp \S in regexp \w in regexp \W in regexp \_< in regexp \_> in regexp \` in regexp ] in regexp ^ in regexp | in regexp I don't see anything shy there. ;-) > I don't know if chars like "(?:" can be used in a Texinfo index > without first sacrificing a few virgins. I don't know which characters are supported, but see the list above, which contains other non-letter characters. > I'm not sure if it's likely that someone will look for > "non-capturing" or "unnumbered" groups Why not? Someone familiar with regexps in another language, who wanted to know whether, and the details of how, Emacs handles unnumbered groups, might well look that up. > (i.e. would someone look for the syntax to use for that feature, > rather than look for the feature associated to that syntax?). 1. Yes, of course. If s?he knew the syntax (or guessed it from another language) to be (?:, but s?he didn't know what the Emacs doc happens to file this info away under, might well look up the syntax itself, (?:. That's the first thing I looked for, FWIW. 2. To look up the feature associated with the syntax, you have to know what the feature is called. That's why unnumbered group etc. should also be in the index. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
* bug#3001: marked as done (23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?:) 2009-04-15 6:41 ` bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Drew Adams 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 14:57 ` Stefan Monnier @ 2009-04-15 22:00 ` Emacs bug Tracking System 2 siblings, 0 replies; 6+ messages in thread From: Emacs bug Tracking System @ 2009-04-15 22:00 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chong Yidong [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 860 bytes --] Your message dated Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:57:04 -0400 with message-id <87d4bdbmxb.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> and subject line Re: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: has caused the Emacs bug report #3001, regarding 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: to be marked as done. This means that you claim that the problem has been dealt with. If this is not the case it is now your responsibility to reopen the bug report if necessary, and/or fix the problem forthwith. (NB: If you are a system administrator and have no idea what this message is talking about, this may indicate a serious mail system misconfiguration somewhere. Please contact owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com immediately.) -- 3001: http://emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=3001 Emacs Bug Tracking System Contact owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com with problems [-- Attachment #2: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 4047 bytes --] From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> To: <emacs-pretest-bug@gnu.org> Subject: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2009 23:41:48 -0700 Message-ID: <006801c9bd95$41e3e180$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Emacs calls regexp groups that use the grouping construct "(?:" "shy groups". I don't get the impression that that is a common term for this construct, outside Emacs. Googling "shy group" shows only Emacs hits. Googling and searching for regexp groups shows that terms such as "non-capturing group" and "unnumbered group" are more typically used for "(?:". And the Emacs doc for "(?:" even explains it as an unnumbered group. It doesn't explain or hint at the meaning of "shy" at all. This seems like a poor choice of words. "Shy" might already have become the Emacs "traditional" terminology, so that it can't easily be replaced (some people will look for it). But at least some explanation of the use of the word "shy" is in order, if only for mnemonic purposes. What were you thinking? ;-) (Perhaps it is translated from some other language, where it has more than one meaning?) More importantly, this construct does not appear to be indexed in the manual. It should be indexed under "(: in regexp", as well as under "regexp non-capturing group" and "regexp unnumbered group" - and of course "regexp shy group", if that term is kept. In GNU Emacs 23.0.92.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2009-03-30 on SOFT-MJASON Windowing system distributor `Microsoft Corp.', version 5.1.2600 configured using `configure --with-gcc (3.4)' [-- Attachment #3: Type: message/rfc822, Size: 1205 bytes --] From: Chong Yidong <cyd@stupidchicken.com> To: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> Cc: 3001-done@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Subject: Re: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Date: Wed, 15 Apr 2009 17:57:04 -0400 Message-ID: <87d4bdbmxb.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> I've updated the manual to include "shy groups", "non-capturing groups", and "unnumbered groups" in the index, and to introduce the latter two terms. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 6+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2009-04-15 22:00 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 6+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- [not found] <87d4bdbmxb.fsf@cyd.mit.edu> 2009-04-15 6:41 ` bug#3001: 23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?: Drew Adams 2009-04-15 13:32 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 14:45 ` Andreas Schwab 2009-04-15 14:57 ` Stefan Monnier 2009-04-15 15:41 ` Drew Adams 2009-04-15 22:00 ` bug#3001: marked as done (23.0.92; doc for regexp construct (?:) Emacs bug Tracking System
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