bug#5885: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

bug#5885: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:53:58 -0500, William Henney <whenney@gmail.com> said:

> Hi, Accented characters are not fontified correctly. For example, if
> I have '\emph{ojalá}' in a LaTeX file, then 'ojal' are displayed in
> an italic font but the 'á' is not. Same goes for bold, etc.

> This occurs both in Aquamacs and in regular Carbon Emacs.

I can't reproduce it either with fontset-mac (the default one) or with

  (create-fontset-from-mac-roman
   "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman" nil "test1")
  (set-frame-font "fontset-test1")

while I can reproduce with

  (create-fontset-from-fontset-spec
   "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-test2,
    ascii:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman,
    latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman")
  (set-frame-font "fontset-test2")

Aren't you using a fontset defined with
create-fontset-from-fontset-spec ?

Besides the above problem, I'd rather not recommend the use of
create-fontset-from-fontset-spec on Carbon Emacs because it introduces
tons of wrong glyphs.  For example, "×" is displayed as "W", "ý" as
"}", and so on.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

bug#5901: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[William Henney]

Hi Mitsuharu

Thanks very much for your reply.

On Jun 29, 2005, at 6:15 AM, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote:

>>>>>> On Fri, 24 Jun 2005 22:53:58 -0500, William Henney  
>>>>>> <whenney@gmail.com> said:
>>>>>>
>
>
>> Hi, Accented characters are not fontified correctly.
>
> I can't reproduce it either with fontset-mac (the default one) or with
>
>   (create-fontset-from-mac-roman
>    "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman" nil  
> "test1")
>   (set-frame-font "fontset-test1")
>
> while I can reproduce with
>
>   (create-fontset-from-fontset-spec
>    "-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-fontset-test2,
>     ascii:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman,
>     latin-iso8859-1:-apple-monaco-medium-r-normal--14-*-*-*-*-*-mac- 
> roman")
>   (set-frame-font "fontset-test2")
>
> Aren't you using a fontset defined with
> create-fontset-from-fontset-spec ?
>

Yes, that is correct. I had changed fonts using the font menu, which  
presents a list of fonts that seem to have been made using create- 
fontset-from-fontset-spec. Everything is fine if I use create-fontset- 
from-mac-roman-font as you suggest.

> Besides the above problem, I'd rather not recommend the use of
> create-fontset-from-fontset-spec on Carbon Emacs because it introduces
> tons of wrong glyphs.  For example, "×" is displayed as "W", "ý" as
> "}", and so on.
>

Ah yes, so it does. I hadn't noticed this since I rarely use anything  
outside iso-latin-1.

Can create-fontset-from-fontset-spec be fixed? If not, presumably its  
use should be avoided in the fonts listed in the font menu.

Cheers

Will

bug#5888: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[David Reitter]

On 29 Jun 2005, at 16:54, William Henney wrote:

> Can create-fontset-from-fontset-spec be fixed? If not, presumably  
> its use should be avoided in the fonts listed in the font menu.


Well, create-fontset-from-mac-roman seems to create fontsets with  
fonts only drawn from the 'roman' type.
That's why quite a few of the fontsets in Aquamacs are created with  
this function.

So I second Will in saying that it'd be good if create-fontset-from- 
fontset-spec could be fixed.

-- D

bug#5886: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:03:34 +0100, David Reitter <david.reitter@gmail.com> said:

> Well, create-fontset-from-mac-roman seems to create fontsets with
> fonts only drawn from the 'roman' type.

Could you give me a concrete example?

> So I second Will in saying that it'd be good if create-fontset-from-
> fontset-spec could be fixed.

As for the "tons of wrong glyphs" problem, I think that's due to a
misuse of the function, rather than a bug.  The function
create-fontset-from-fontset-spec is suitable only for the case that
all the characters in a single charset are displayed with a single
font.  But that's not the case for fonts in Mac encodings.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

bug#5892: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[David Reitter]

On 29 Jun 2005, at 17:36, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote:
>> Well, create-fontset-from-mac-roman seems to create fontsets with
>> fonts only drawn from the 'roman' type.
>>
>
> Could you give me a concrete example?

I didn't try it out (don't use cyrillic fonts etc.), but I looked at  
the name of the function and at the code, which uses

(create-fontset-from-ascii-font font resolved-font fontset-name)

The documentation says that this function 'Create[s] a fontset from  
an ASCII font font", which I take to be roman only.
But let me know if I'm mistaken there. I don't know much about the  
whole font business...

>> So I second Will in saying that it'd be good if create-fontset-from-
>> fontset-spec could be fixed.
>>
>
> As for the "tons of wrong glyphs" problem, I think that's due to a
> misuse of the function, rather than a bug.  The function
> create-fontset-from-fontset-spec is suitable only for the case that
> all the characters in a single charset are displayed with a single
> font.  But that's not the case for fonts in Mac encodings.

Uuh, oh - the documentation of create-fontset-from-fontset-spec  
doesn't say so. Maybe it's a documentation bug then :)

So what should we use to define a fontset that contains roman and non- 
roman fonts for a variety of charsets?
That's quite relevant, because at least a few standard fontsets need  
to support everything.

If you look at carbon-font.el by T. Hiromatsu, you'll see a lot of  
(undocumented or documented-in-Japanese) code that deals with fonts,  
using create-fontset-from-fontset-spec. I assume you have a better  
idea about what's going on there...

bug#5869: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jun 2005 17:59:01 +0100, David Reitter <david.reitter@gmail.com> said:

>>> Well, create-fontset-from-mac-roman seems to create fontsets with
>>> fonts only drawn from the 'roman' type.

>> Could you give me a concrete example?

> I didn't try it out (don't use cyrillic fonts etc.), but I looked at
> the name of the function and at the code, which uses

> (create-fontset-from-ascii-font font resolved-font fontset-name)

> The documentation says that this function 'Create[s] a fontset from
> an ASCII font font", which I take to be roman only.  But let me know
> if I'm mistaken there. I don't know much about the whole font
> business...

Please don't just guess.  Fontsets defined with
create-fontset-from-ascii-font can also display non-ascii fonts (if
corresponding fonts are installed).  Unspecified parts are
complemented using the data in "fontset-default" and others.

I've been using fontsets defined with
create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font and I can display CJK characters as
well as mac-roman, mac-centraleurroman, mac-cyrillic, mac-symbol, and
mac-dingbats characters.

>> As for the "tons of wrong glyphs" problem, I think that's due to a
>> misuse of the function, rather than a bug.  The function
>> create-fontset-from-fontset-spec is suitable only for the case that
>> all the characters in a single charset are displayed with a single
>> font.  But that's not the case for fonts in Mac encodings.

> Uuh, oh - the documentation of create-fontset-from-fontset-spec
> doesn't say so. Maybe it's a documentation bug then :)

I think the format of the FONTSET-SPEC argument implicitly says that.

  FONTSET-SPEC is a string of the format:
	FONTSET-NAME,CHARSET-NAME0:FONT-NAME0,CHARSET-NAME1:FONT-NAME1,...
	
Moreover, we usually don't have to care about that on X11.

> So what should we use to define a fontset that contains roman and
> non- roman fonts for a variety of charsets?  That's quite relevant,
> because at least a few standard fontsets need to support everything.

  (create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font
   "-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman" nil "NAME")

would do the right thing for normal use.  If one also want to use ETL
fonts, one can refer to how "fontset-mac" is defined.

> If you look at carbon-font.el by T. Hiromatsu, you'll see a lot of
> (undocumented or documented-in-Japanese) code that deals with fonts,
> using create-fontset-from-fontset-spec. I assume you have a better
> idea about what's going on there...

I've no idea about its intention.  It also introduces tons of wrong
glyphs...

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

bug#5868: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[David Reitter]

On 30 Jun 2005, at 04:34, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote:
>   (create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font
>    "-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman" nil "NAME")
>
> would do the right thing for normal use.  If one also want to use ETL
> fonts, one can refer to how "fontset-mac" is defined.

OK.

I'm doing this now, and the definition of a couple of fontsets in  
different sizes (around 25 fontsets) takes over three seconds. Since  
we define the fontsets at startup time, this  represents an issue for  
us.

Can fontset creation handled on demand some how?

Why do we handle fonts lust like on X11 again in the Carbon port?
Do dozens of packages depend on specific fonts being set via the X11  
font-specs?
Does it enable people to actually exchange / share font-settings  
between the Carbon port and the X11 port?

I hope the font handling can and will be revised when the unicode  
branch is merged.

bug#5870: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 07:52:28 +0100, David Reitter <david.reitter@gmail.com> said:

> On 30 Jun 2005, at 04:34, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu wrote:
>> (create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font
>> "-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman" nil "NAME")
>> 
>> would do the right thing for normal use.  If one also want to use
>> ETL fonts, one can refer to how "fontset-mac" is defined.

> I'm doing this now, and the definition of a couple of fontsets in
> different sizes (around 25 fontsets) takes over three seconds. Since
> we define the fontsets at startup time, this represents an issue for
> us.

I'm not aware of that (I only define one fontset on startup).
Removing the Foptimize_char_table call in Fset_fontset_font
(fontset.c) seems to improve the speed at least for this case.

> Can fontset creation handled on demand some how?

What should trigger fontset creations?  If it is restricted to user
commands such as menu item selection, then such lazy creation could be
implemented at the user level.

> Why do we handle fonts lust like on X11 again in the Carbon port?
> Do dozens of packages depend on specific fonts being set via the X11
> font-specs?  Does it enable people to actually exchange / share
> font-settings between the Carbon port and the X11 port?

I think that's because the current Emacs internal code, aka
emacs-mule, is created so that it matches the X11 font system.  You
don't want to change the Emacs internal code for the Carbon port, do
you?  Exchanging/sharing font-setting is not relevant here.

> I hope the font handling can and will be revised when the unicode
> branch is merged.

It seems that the unicode branch enables us to define custom charsets
and one can specify such charsets in a font-spec.  I'm not sure how
ATSUI support will change the situation. (I've never worked on that.)

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

bug#5880: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[Stefan Monnier]

Could someone explain to me why(if) Carbon Emacs needs fiddling with
create-fontset-* at all?

I haven't used that version, but in the X11 code I've never had to fiddle
with create-fontset-* and I can see al kinds of funny glyphs just fine.

Isn't it possible to make sure that the default config of Carbon Emacs comes
with a "working" default fontset?


        Stefan

bug#5884: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Thu, 30 Jun 2005 13:56:30 -0400, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> said:

> Could someone explain to me why(if) Carbon Emacs needs fiddling with
> create-fontset-* at all?

The current Emacs character representation divides the whole character
space into ISO-2022-based charsets.  But charsets for Mac fonts is not
based on ISO-2022 (except ASCII and CJK), so mapping from Emacs
internal code is needed especially for European fonts so that one
Emacs charset corresponds to multiple Mac fonts.

> Isn't it possible to make sure that the default config of Carbon
> Emacs comes with a "working" default fontset?

"fontset-mac" is supposed to be such a fontset, and it is used by
default.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba–u.ac.jp

bug#5875: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Could someone explain to me why(if) Carbon Emacs needs fiddling with
>> create-fontset-* at all?

> The current Emacs character representation divides the whole character
> space into ISO-2022-based charsets.  But charsets for Mac fonts is not
> based on ISO-2022 (except ASCII and CJK), so mapping from Emacs
> internal code is needed especially for European fonts so that one
> Emacs charset corresponds to multiple Mac fonts.

And the other mapping tools (i.e. the use of a CCL encoder for the font
encoding) are not a solution because they do not lift the basic assumption
that each charset is covered by at most one font?

>> Isn't it possible to make sure that the default config of Carbon
>> Emacs comes with a "working" default fontset?

> "fontset-mac" is supposed to be such a fontset, and it is used by
> default.

Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use another
default font?  Would there be a way to tweak things such that changing the
font of the default face (or of the frame, ...) automatically/transparently
builds a sensible new fontset?


        Stefan

bug#5899: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[William Henney]

On 1 Jul 2005, at 10:15 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>
> Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use  
> another
> default font?

I guess so. In my case, this was because I found the default font too  
small for my taste. I think the point is that if there is a menu item  
to change the font, then it should do so without breaking things.  
Personally, I would be happy with a much more restricted range of  
available fonts.

Cheers

Will

bug#5874: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[David Reitter]

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On 1 Jul 2005, at 17:32, William Henney wrote:
>>
>> Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use  
>> another
>> default font?
>>
>
> I guess so. In my case, this was because I found the default font  
> too small for my taste. I think the point is that if there is a  
> menu item to change the font, then it should do so without breaking  
> things. Personally, I would be happy with a much more restricted  
> range of available fonts.

Caution... Will might refer to the Aquamacs default font, which is  
different from the standard.
It was small in the latest release, because we were using create- 
fontset-from-fontset-spec instead of the mac-* function - the latter  
creates correct font sizes.

The choice of default fontset in CVS Emacs isn't too good or wasn't  
last time I checked, in particular since antialiasing is switched off  
by default.
I think when you set the font with set-frame-font, you get a font  
that is never antialiased - you always have to create a fontset (and  
turn on antialiasing explicitly).

-- Dave


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bug#5879: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use  another
>> default font?

> I guess so. In my case, this was because I found the default font too  small
> for my taste.

Have you tried to only change the font size, but not the font itself
(i.e. do M-x customize-face RET default RET and change the height) ?

> I think the point is that if there is a menu item  to change the font,
> then it should do so without breaking things.

Of course,


        Stefan

bug#5883: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:15:57 -0400, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> said:

> And the other mapping tools (i.e. the use of a CCL encoder for the
> font encoding) are not a solution because they do not lift the basic
> assumption that each charset is covered by at most one font?

A fontset maps a character to a font, and a CCL encoder maps a
codepoint to another codepoint.  Actually, the variable
font-ccl-encoder-alist is used for that purpose in mac-win.el.

>> "fontset-mac" is supposed to be such a fontset, and it is used by
>> default.

> Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use
> another default font?  Would there be a way to tweak things such
> that changing the font of the default face (or of the frame, ...)
> automatically/transparently builds a sensible new fontset?

It may not be automatic or transparent, but customizing the default
font is as simple as

  (add-to-list
   'default-frame-alist
   `(font . ,(create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font
	      "-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman")))

or

  $ defaults write org.gnu.Emacs Emacs.font '-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman'

and not so different from other platforms, I think.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

bug#5873: [Aquamacs-bugs] Re: incorrect fontification of non-ascii chars on Mac OS X 10.4

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

(My original reply was not delivered to emacs-pretest-bug by a mistake
 on my side, so I resend this mail (with a few correction).  I'm sorry
 about the duplicated mail delivered to the other recipients.)

>>>>> On Fri, 01 Jul 2005 11:15:57 -0400, Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> said:

> And the other mapping tools (i.e. the use of a CCL encoder for the
> font encoding) are not a solution because they do not lift the basic
> assumption that each charset is covered by at most one font?

A fontset maps a character to a font, and a CCL encoder maps a
character to a codepoint (in a single font).  Actually, the variable
font-ccl-encoder-alist is used for that purpose in mac-win.el.

>> "fontset-mac" is supposed to be such a fontset, and it is used by
>> default.

> Hmm... so the complaints we hear are from people who want to use
> another default font?  Would there be a way to tweak things such
> that changing the font of the default face (or of the frame, ...)
> automatically/transparently builds a sensible new fontset?

It may not be automatic or transparent, but customizing the default
font is as simple as

  (add-to-list
   'default-frame-alist
   `(font . ,(create-fontset-from-mac-roman-font
	      "-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman")))

or

  $ defaults write org.gnu.Emacs Emacs.font '-*-FAMILY-medium-r-normal--SIZE-*-*-*-*-*-mac-roman'

and not so different from other platforms, I think.

				     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
				mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp