From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20202: bug#20484: bug#20202: Considered Harmful 73d213: 'Comint, term, and compile new set Emacs' Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:58:07 -0400 Message-ID: References: <87oa9otixb.fsf@russet.org.uk> <5703E15B.7080601@cs.ucla.edu> <87k2kcovt8.fsf@russet.org.uk> <5704233B.4020103@cs.ucla.edu> <8737qzso88.fsf@russet.org.uk> <57045765.4000309@cs.ucla.edu> <87r3ei8vz9.fsf@russet.org.uk> <5705B246.10201@cs.ucla.edu> <5706764D.2010708@cs.ucla.edu> <282e74a937853505fddfea446c9bc46e.squirrel@cloud103.planethippo.com> <57067BF6.6000700@cs.ucla.edu> <83bn5ll5i8.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1460066885 412 80.91.229.3 (7 Apr 2016 22:08:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Thu, 7 Apr 2016 22:08:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: phillip.lord@russet.org.uk, eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 20484@debbugs.gnu.org, 20202@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Apr 08 00:07:50 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1aoI5T-0000Sj-7e for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 08 Apr 2016 00:07:39 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52334 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aoI5S-0003Xm-NL for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:07:38 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:53343) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aoFNp-0000PZ-2q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 15:14:30 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aoF8w-0004DY-BS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:59:06 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:40853) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1aoF8w-0004DD-88 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:59:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aoF8v-0006vm-Nq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:59:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20202 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20202-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20202.146005549926588 (code B ref 20202); Thu, 07 Apr 2016 18:59:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20202) by debbugs.gnu.org; 7 Apr 2016 18:58:19 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:53188 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aoF8E-0006ul-Kq for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:58:18 -0400 Original-Received: from ironport2-out.teksavvy.com ([206.248.154.181]:44594) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1aoF8D-0006uV-9E; Thu, 07 Apr 2016 14:58:17 -0400 X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Filtered: true X-IronPort-Anti-Spam-Result: A0CdDQA731xV/wl73mhcgxCEAshgBAICgTw9EAEBAQEBAQGBCkEFg10BAQMBViMQCzQSFBgNJC6ICQjPIwEBCAIBH4s6hQUHhC0FtQQjgjuBWSKCeAEBAQ X-IPAS-Result: A0CdDQA731xV/wl73mhcgxCEAshgBAICgTw9EAEBAQEBAQGBCkEFg10BAQMBViMQCzQSFBgNJC6ICQjPIwEBCAIBH4s6hQUHhC0FtQQjgjuBWSKCeAEBAQ X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="5.13,465,1427774400"; d="scan'208";a="205392698" Original-Received: from 104-222-123-9.cpe.teksavvy.com (HELO pastel.home) ([104.222.123.9]) by ironport2-out.teksavvy.com with ESMTP; 07 Apr 2016 14:58:08 -0400 Original-Received: by pastel.home (Postfix, from userid 20848) id A5D0B64010; Thu, 7 Apr 2016 14:58:07 -0400 (EDT) In-Reply-To: <83bn5ll5i8.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Thu, 07 Apr 2016 19:59:11 +0300") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/25.1.50 (gnu/linux) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:116174 Archived-At: >> Maybe the best solution is to stop messing with $EMACS by default (and >> hence change the behavior of sub-shells in negative ways for some >> users), and then provide an easy way for those users to get back the >> "fully featured" sub-shell they love. > I don't think this will satisfy users of those shells. I don't think "satisfy" is sufficiently well defined to be useful in this conversation. There's clearly a tradeoff to be made between bug#20202 and bug#20484. IOW, right now people who suffer from bug#20202 are not satisfied either. The ideal situation (which I think is the one that we should strive for in the long-run) is to have Emacs not touch the $EMACS var (which will address bug#20202). So the question is how to get there. It will most likely involve a bit of annoyance to some users along the way. But I think replacing $EMACS by $INSIDE_EMACS in their ~/.zshrc, or adding some magic one-liner in their ~/.emacs is a rather minor annoyance. Stefan