From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Monnier via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#52063: 28.0.60; Confusing presentation of lambda Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500 Message-ID: References: <83czmqaegb.fsf@gnu.org> <874k82vwe5.fsf@gnus.org> <831r35afde.fsf@gnu.org> <87v90hu36b.fsf@gnus.org> <83v90h8zjw.fsf@gnu.org> <87r1b5u1cl.fsf@gnus.org> <83pmqp8vps.fsf@gnu.org> <83zgpt7353.fsf@gnu.org> <83tug172a9.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Stefan Monnier Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3585"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/29.0.50 (gnu/linux) Cc: larsi@gnus.org, fgunbin@fastmail.fm, 52063@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Nov 24 21:25:24 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1mpypX-0000kB-FR for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:25:23 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54622 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpypW-00059U-26 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:25:22 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52140) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpypC-00059G-Ld for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:43543) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1mpypC-0006tw-D5 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpypC-0002EY-A4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:25:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Monnier Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:25:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 52063 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 52063-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B52063.16377854438503 (code B ref 52063); Wed, 24 Nov 2021 20:25:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 52063) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Nov 2021 20:24:03 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55089 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpyoE-0002D5-PT for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:24:02 -0500 Original-Received: from mailscanner.iro.umontreal.ca ([132.204.25.50]:15022) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1mpyoC-0002CY-Ne for 52063@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:24:01 -0500 Original-Received: from pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (localhost.localdomain [127.0.0.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id C95E81001C4; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:54 -0500 (EST) Original-Received: from mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (unknown [172.31.2.1]) by pmg1.iro.umontreal.ca (Proxmox) with ESMTP id 26C4B10016E; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:53 -0500 (EST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=iro.umontreal.ca; s=mail; t=1637785433; bh=vOBgPKIB02XOKBgzTfhk2YqNAwsQ19lvm6yNCQVI7aM=; h=From:To:Cc:Subject:References:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=FBjYd9lSM37zDwSga9AM6jRBQA80wNazu4SeDQQiaq98NQZYNQu4vZDExqUZ/mq+0 tWcSczsdVK1OfI3N3CQxhlbMEKkYqIOs9mfsdae6LbnuugDHJp9bdeskcwubetvZ5k zY5KoTumAie9s9tAlRQlBF4VOJSgbCK9q3cOxlCBu3vgt8b8T0BVElPQhqieG2VCzB DDkRBbG0JKOEoHf80T88OGWWYIV+ZhF1MnCH7t7C01jpq5OfICg9irv3R2EinB4Czc ceTMiiJa+otXV+cqGUVDFV6iJSlWOWH7qe8hkK1YFYQZcY0yO3Xq6TIHOdXlN92ypb 82Bb9WI6HtFeA== Original-Received: from pastel (unknown [216.154.30.173]) by mail01.iro.umontreal.ca (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id E3C571207D4; Wed, 24 Nov 2021 15:23:52 -0500 (EST) In-Reply-To: <83tug172a9.fsf@gnu.org> (Eli Zaretskii's message of "Wed, 24 Nov 2021 21:59:42 +0200") X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:220777 Archived-At: >> What I'm saying is that you are annoyed by the (closure ...) thingy >> mostly because you're used to seeing (lambda ...) rather than because >> there's an actual problem with the (closure ...) itself. > And that is strange because?... Because a function value is fundamentally something very different from the text of the code from which it came. E.g. just `read`ing the object will have lost info such as comments or choice between ?a and 97, then macroexpansion will change the code further, and with lexical scoping the need to capture the environment means that the function values need to be completed with the captured environment. > I want to see the code I wrote, not > some strange transformation of it. Given all the info lost between the source code and the actual function value (it's even worse if the code gets compiled), I think the better way to do that is to try and keep a reference to the source. We currently don't do that, but we should. >> IOW if it had always behaved that way, you wouldn't be bothered by it. > This kind of arguments lead nowhere useful. It smells of disrespect > to dissenting opinions, which I'm sure you didn't intend. No, it's just a guess, based on experience in other languages. > I'm annoyed by this misfeature. If it means nothing to you and > others, so be it. I fully understand desire to see function values printed as much as possible as their original source code, but it's hard to reconcile this with the needs of clean semantics, efficient execution, good code analysis, ... Stefan