bug#16155: 24.3.50;

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Richard Stallman]

In text mode, if the buffer contains
-----------------------------------------
foo

   bar

-----------------------------------------

and point is at the end of the line, and I type RET,
it indents the following line.

I don't ever like having newline indent.  It should be a minor mode,
and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn
this off.

However, in this case with the blank line after `bar', it is even less
likely to be desirable to indent the new line like `bar'.


In GNU Emacs 24.3.50.18 (mips64el-unknown-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 2.20.1)
 of 2013-12-14 on chiefs-gnewsense
Bzr revision: 115526 tzz@lifelogs.com-20131214180409-n2o5017gxsjvz8as
System Description:	gNewSense GNU/Linux 3.0 (parkes)

Configured using:
 `configure 'CFLAGS=-g -O0''

Important settings:
  value of $LANG: en_US.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix
  default enable-multibyte-characters: t

Major mode: Text

Minor modes in effect:
  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  gpm-mouse-mode: t
  tooltip-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  abbrev-mode: t

Recent input:
C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-n C-p C-p C-p C-@ C-u C-n 
ESC e c ESC , RET RET ESC \ N o , SPC I t h i n k SPC 
C-u C-b C-b C-b SPC C-h f n w DEL e w l i n e RET C-e 
y o u SPC h v e SPC DEL DEL DEL a v e SPC m i s C-a 
C-k I n d e e d , SPC i t SPC i s n ' t SPC a SPC c 
o p i e r . SPC SPC C-a ESC f ESC f ESC DEL t h a t 
C-e H o w e v e r , SPC w h a t ' s SPC r e l e v a 
n t SPC t o SPC t h i s SPC i s s u e RET i s SPC t 
h a t SPC c o m p u t e r s SPC c a n SPC c o p y SPC 
p r o g r a m s . SPC SPC D i f f e r e n t i a t i 
o n SPC i s n ' t SPC r e a DEL l e v a SPC t DEL DEL 
n t . RET C-c C-c C-x 1 C-a C-u C-v C-u C-v C-u C-v 
C-u C-v n d d d d d d d C-x C-f f o o f o . t x t RET 
f o o SPC b a r RET SPC SPC SPC l o s e RET ESC x b 
u g SPC ESC DEL r e p o r t SPC e m a c s SPC b u g 
RET

Recent messages:
Wrote /home/rms/outgoing/out-36
Sending...done
Quit
Mark set [2 times]
Type "q" in help window to restore its previous buffer.
Auto-saving...
Sending...
Wrote /home/rms/outgoing/out-37
Sending...done
(New file)

Load-path shadows:
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/lao hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/lao
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/georgian hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/georgian
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/thai hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/thai
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/ethiopic hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/ethiopic
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/japanese hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/japanese
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/cyrillic hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/cyrillic
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/indian hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/indian
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/hebrew hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/hebrew
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/greek hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/greek
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/czech hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/czech
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/slovak hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/slovak
/home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/leim/quail/tibetan hides /home/rms/emacs-bzr/trunk/lisp/language/tibetan

Features:
(shadow emacsbug help-mode misearch multi-isearch epa-mail epa derived
epg epg-config shell pcomplete grep compile comint ansi-color ring
mailalias qp rmailmm message sendmail format-spec rfc822 mml easymenu
mml-sec mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader
mail-parse rfc2231 dired t-mouse package rmailedit rmail rfc2047
rfc2045 ietf-drums mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date paren
cus-start cus-load advice help-fns tooltip electric uniquify
ediff-hook vc-hooks lisp-float-type mwheel x-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd
fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list newcomment lisp-mode
prog-mode register page menu-bar rfn-eshadow timer select scroll-bar
mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax facemenu font-core frame cham georgian
utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean
japanese hebrew greek romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian
cyrillic chinese case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help simple abbrev
minibuffer nadvice loaddefs button faces cus-face macroexp files
text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule
custom widget hashtable-print-readable backquote make-network-process
dbusbind gfilenotify dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit x multi-tty emacs)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

> I don't ever like having newline indent.  It should be a minor mode,

It is a minor mode.  Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default.
See NEWS.

> and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn
> this off.

The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to
electric-indent-mode.


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    > and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn
    > this off.

    The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to
    electric-indent-mode.

I see it does -- but I did not notice that part when I looked at it.
It doesn't clearly tell people what to do to avoid this.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Alan Mackenzie]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
>> I don't ever like having newline indent.

I agree.  `newline' should never indent the new line.  `newline-and-indent'
should always indent the new line.

>> It should be a minor mode,

> It is a minor mode.  Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default.
> See NEWS.

electric-indent-mode _is_ enabled by default in the current trunk.  I've
just updated, built, and tried it.

>> and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn
>> this off.

> The docstring does mention the indentation behavior, with a link to
> electric-indent-mode.

What the docstring says is this:

    A non-nil INTERACTIVE argument means to run the `post-self-insert-hook',
    which by default will also indent the line (see `electric-indent-mode').

Presumably the invocation of `newline' by pressing the RET key leaves
INTERACTIVE set to nil.  Nevertheless, the unwanted indentation happened.

This is bad documentation, since it describes the internal workings rather
than the coherent functionality.  As a user of `newline', I shouldn't have
to know about `post-self-insert-hook', never mind having to try to figure
out which way to set INTERACTIVE.

I can't make out what that bit of the doc string means without a
considerable investment of intellectual effort.

Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific
command `newline-and-indent'?  I think a good way to resolve the current
confusion would be to restrict electric-indent-mode to indenting ONLY the
line in which the character is typed, and leaving the indentation of any
new line to `newline-and-indent'.

>        Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Jarek Czekalski]

We had a lot of reading in the subject, some links in my bug report 
which was resolved with this additional doc string:

24.3.50; newline indents in shell script mode
http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=16015#11

Jarek

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

>> It is a minor mode.  Called electric-indent-mode, and no enabled by default.
                                                         ^^
                                                         now
>> See NEWS.

> electric-indent-mode _is_ enabled by default in the current trunk.

Indeed, as mentioned in NEWS.

> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific
> command `newline-and-indent'?

Because apparently most users like it.  You don't, so turn it off in
your ~/.emacs.


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes

[Jarek Czekalski]

W dniu 2013-12-16 15:19, Stefan Monnier pisze:
>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific
>> command `newline-and-indent'?
> Because apparently most users like it.  You don't, so turn it off in
> your ~/.emacs.

Stefan, please don't make the basic mistake: users (probably) like 
"pressing RET indents", not "newline command" indents.

If you have the data that most users like "newline command" to indent, 
please show it. It will cut all the discussions. I write it just in case 
you really meant what you wrote, which is unlikely.

About turning it off: it was also asked for. The docs should guide to 
the place describing how to turn it off. I don't know how to turn it 
off, but I wait patiently. It must appear on the group sooner or later.

Jarek

bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes

[Stefan Monnier]

> About turning it off: it was also asked for. The docs should guide to the
> place describing how to turn it off. I don't know how to turn it off, but
> I wait patiently. It must appear on the group sooner or later.

Remove ?\n from electric-indent-chars.
I.e.

  (setq-default electric-indent-chars nil)


-- Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50; electric indent gripes

[Alan Mackenzie]

Stefan,

The thread up to here ran as follows:

>>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific
>>> command `newline-and-indent'?
>> Because apparently most users like it.  You don't, so turn it off in
>> your ~/.emacs.

> Stefan, please don't make the basic mistake: users (probably) like
> "pressing RET indents", not "newline command" indents.

Jarek's central point, which you cut in your reply to him, was this:

> If you have the data that most users like "newline command" to indent,
> please show it. It will cut all the discussions. I write it just in case
> you really meant what you wrote, which is unlikely.

Would you please now address this point.  Thanks!

> Jarek

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Was a proper poll of users ever conducted?
I don't think so.

The first pretest would be a good opportunity to do that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Drew Adams]

> Was a proper poll of users ever conducted?  I don't think so.
> The first pretest would be a good opportunity to do that.

+1

I just picked up a new development build, where `electric-indent-mode'
is enabled by default.  FWIW, I'm afraid I'm with Alan and Jarek (and
RMS?) on this: I have turned it off.  In `emacs-lisp-mode', especially,
I want `C-j' to do `newline-and-indent', and I want `RET' to do only
`newline'.

As for the documentation in NEWS: This is all there is:

   `electric-indent-mode' is enabled by default.

I was looking for something about `newline' or `C-j' or `RET' in
programming modes (lisp modes, in particular), so I didn't find this
entry right away.  I suggest that you (a) explain this a little more
and (b) make it easier to find.

Mention, for example, that `C-j' and `RET' are, in effect, swapped
now from what they have always been.  At least that is true as a
first approximation - I have no idea what other "interesting" changes
this change in default behavior brings about.  And I won't bother
to find out - I just added this to my init file:

 (when (fboundp 'electric-indent-mode) (electric-indent-mode -1))

---

It's interesting that a giant brouhaha was made about seeing what
changes users might want, to existing defaults, by: (a) checking
the features and modes reported automatically in bug reports and
(b) initiating a user poll on Emacs Wiki.

And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was
considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior.
Whyzat?

How many users actually reported (measured any way you like) that
they wanted the default behavior to change to what you've changed
it to?  Well, we cannot really count the Emacs Wiki poll, because
it was taken after you changed the default!  Even so, only 10%
(12 people) reported there that they use it - even though it is
now the default!

http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/FrequentlyEnabledPackages_Emacs244_Survey_Results

No, the Emacs Wiki poll is not a great poll.  But do tell:
Among the bug reports received before you changed the default
value, how many users actually had `electric-indent-mode'
turned on?  Just curious.

Anyway, you decided - end of story.  Not a big deal -
just one more.  I've updated my init file to compensate.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Josh]

On Tue, Dec 17, 2013 at 2:39 PM, Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
> And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was
> considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior.
> Whyzat?

To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably
decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became
available.

[0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Drew Adams]

> > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was
> > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior.
> 
> To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably
> decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became
> available.
> 
> [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html

"To be fair", I already said that this was decided before
that poll was taken.  That was the main point: it was decided
without benefit of any poll or automatically gathered data.

If it had been decided after the wiki "poll", my guess is
that there would be even fewer than 10% of the users reporting
there that they use `electric-indent-mode'.  Since this has
been turned on by default for the duration of that "poll",
one would expect more people to report it being (left) on.
(Of course, many users do not use development builds, which
works in the other direction.)

But it's not too late to solicit user input and take it into
account, as Richard pointed out.

FWIW, I read (and participated in) the thread you cite.  In
particular, I mentioned then that there is a use for a
simple just-insert-a-newline key binding, regardless of which
key that might be.  (Some had suggested that there was no
need for this.)  I said that I do sometimes use only `RET'
(now it is `C-j'), to just insert a newline.  (Why that use
case was not obvious to some people, I don't know.)

I disagree with the need for this default key swap, and the
possible benefit to Emacs from it.  But I do not feel strongly
about that at all, as I said in that thread.  It's not a big
deal for a user to turn the mode off.

I feel somewhat more strongly that the process followed is
not the best one (insufficient attention to users - and not
just emacs-devel readers).  And I feel more strongly that the
change is not well documented.  That is the thing to correct,
at this point.  That, and trying better wrt the process.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Josh]

On Dec 17, 2013 4:54 PM, "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:
>
> > > And yet none of that data (however flakey or incomplete) was
> > > considered in deciding to make this change in default behavior.
> >
> > To be fair, this was debated at some length[0] and presumably
> > decided a couple of months ago, well before that data became
> > available.
> >
> > [0] https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2013-10/msg00407.html
>
> "To be fair", I already said that this was decided before
> that poll was taken.  That was the main point: it was decided
> without benefit of any poll or automatically gathered data.

Ah, I incorrectly concluded from the passage I quoted that you believed
that the decision had been made after the data had been collected.

> I feel somewhat more strongly that the process followed is
> not the best one (insufficient attention to users - and not
> just emacs-devel readers).

Decisions that are contrary to the majority opinion, whether it be of
contributors or users or both, don't bother me much when they're
transparent and driven by ethical, legal, or other considerations that
demand a particular course of action, for example Richard's decision
to stick with Bazaar by virtue of its status as a GNU project.  Often,
though, there is no such transparency and no overriding considerations
are stated, even upon request, and to me this unwillingness to
engage substantively with others during the process of making such
decisions suggests that our involvement is unwelcome.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

If someone wants to setup a poll, please do so.

My current decision is largely based on the fact that most/all major
modes providing some kind of "electric indent" behavior have
traditionally enabled it by default, and very few users have complained
about it, even when it was difficult to disable.

Also, AFAIK many(most?) non-Emacs programming editors have a similar
feature enabled by default.


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    My current decision is largely based on the fact that most/all major
    modes providing some kind of "electric indent" behavior have
    traditionally enabled it by default, and very few users have complained
    about it, even when it was difficult to disable.

Are those programming modes?  Maybe you're right for programming modes,
but you made the change for Text modes too.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

> Are those programming modes?  Maybe you're right for programming modes,
> but you made the change for Text modes too.

I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference.  Maybe the behavior
needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where
indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies
to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...).


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Alan Mackenzie]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013, Stefan Monnier wrote:

>> Are those programming modes?  Maybe you're right for programming modes,
>> but you made the change for Text modes too.

> I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference.  Maybe the behavior
> needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where
> indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies
> to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...).

There is a difference.  I think this change (which to be explicit, is the
swapping of the actions of the key bindings RET and C-j) should be made 
for programming modes only right now.  Or possibly with certain specific 
other modes which are "like" programming modes.  But in text-mode, RET 
should not indent and C-j should (regardless of what a user 
may have installed on indent-line-function).  If there is demand for 
this swap in other modes, we can always add it later.

>        Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

>>> Are those programming modes?  Maybe you're right for programming modes,
>>> but you made the change for Text modes too.
>> I'm not sure if/why there should be a difference.  Maybe the behavior
>> needs to be adjusted for text-mode (i.e. for the case where
>> indent-line-function is `indent-relative'), but I don't think it applies
>> to all text modes (e.g. latex-mode, nxml-mode, ...).
> There is a difference.

Care to explain which?
Oh wait, better yet: first fix your bug (i.e. that cc-mode ignores
electric-indent-mode), and then come back and "explain which".


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Alan Mackenzie]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca> wrote:
>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the specific
>> command `newline-and-indent'?

> Because apparently most users like it.  You don't, so turn it off in
> your ~/.emacs.

I cannot see how to achieve the result I want by tweaking my .emacs.  What
I want is this:

o - with electric-indent-mode enabled.
o - with ?\n a member of electric-indent-chars.
o - `newline-and-indent' will indent both the current line and the new line.
o - `newline' will indent only the current line

Comments?

>        Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Stefan Monnier]

[ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:"
  field?  ]

>>> Again, the question: why should `newline' indent when we've got the
>>> specific command `newline-and-indent'?
>> Because apparently most users like it.  You don't, so turn it off in
>> your ~/.emacs.
> I cannot see how to achieve the result I want by tweaking my .emacs.  What
> I want is this:
> o - with electric-indent-mode enabled.
> o - with ?\n a member of electric-indent-chars.
> o - `newline-and-indent' will indent both the current line and the new line.
> o - `newline' will indent only the current line
> Comments?

Indeed, I don't think you can get the above behavior by "tweaking" your
~/.emacs.  Is the above a new need, or is that a behavior you used to
have, and if so how did you get it before?


        Stefan

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Glenn Morris]

Stefan Monnier wrote:

> [ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:"
>   field?  ]

It's a little annoying from a list moderator point of view, because it
means the messages look like Newsgroup postings, which need to be
manually approved. Alan, it would be helpful if you could post to this
list in a more "standard" fashion. (Gmane.org is great if you prefer a
newsgroup interface.)

bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;]

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Stefan.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 08:31:19AM -0500, Stefan Monnier wrote:
> [ How did you end up with gnu-emacs-bug@moderators.isc.org in the "To:"
>   field?  ]

I honestly don't know.  I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet
server.  Presumably some NNTP server somewhere along the line has that
address registered as the newgroup's moderation address.

>         Stefan

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;]

[Glenn Morris]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet server.

Please note that posting bug reports and comments via usenet is
*strongly discouraged* (by me), and has been for some time. It doesn't
interact well with debbugs.gnu.org. (Yours somehow seems to work, I have
no idea how.) This is documented in the Emacs manual, the mailing list
description, etc.

bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;]

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Glenn.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 01:12:17PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> > I merely posted a followup on my ISP's Usenet server.

> Please note that posting bug reports and comments via usenet is
> *strongly discouraged* (by me), and has been for some time. It doesn't
> interact well with debbugs.gnu.org.

As you remark, my NNTP posts don't seem to give debbugs any trouble.
Could it be that this is something which isn't just special to me?

> (Yours somehow seems to work, I have no idea how.)

Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been
resolved.

> This is documented in the Emacs manual, the mailing list description,
> etc.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;]

[Glenn Morris]

Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been
> resolved.

I assure you it hasn't. It cannot be fixed. I have spent quite some time
on this, so forgive me if I can't even be bothered to explain it any
more.

http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=936

Your ISP seems to inject postings in some wacky way that happens to work.
As I said, they require extra moderation if nothing else.
(And don't be surprised if the news/mail gateway breaks altogether
at some point, as has often happened in the past.)

bug#16155: Strange moderator address. [Re: bug#16155: 24.3.50;]

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi, Glenn.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2013 at 03:13:41PM -0500, Glenn Morris wrote:
> Alan Mackenzie wrote:

> > Perhaps the problem with usenet and debbugs, whatever it was, has been
> > resolved.

> I assure you it hasn't. It cannot be fixed. I have spent quite some time
> on this, so forgive me if I can't even be bothered to explain it any
> more.

OK.

> http://debbugs.gnu.org/cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=936

> Your ISP seems to inject postings in some wacky way that happens to work.
> As I said, they require extra moderation if nothing else.

I usually approve any posts I make to gnu.emacs.bugs myself.

> (And don't be surprised if the news/mail gateway breaks altogether
> at some point, as has often happened in the past.)

That won't surprise me at all.  :-(

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#16155: 24.3.50;

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

We have not polled the users, so we don't have any real information
about what most users think about it.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#16155: bug#16156: electric indent gripes

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> In text mode, if the buffer contains
> -----------------------------------------
> foo
>
>    bar
>
> -----------------------------------------
>
> and point is at the end of the line, and I type RET,
> it indents the following line.
>
> I don't ever like having newline indent.  It should be a minor mode,
> and the documentation of `newline' should explain how to easily turn
> this off.

It is a minor mode, and the doc string does explain this (at least now
it does).

---
It is bound to RET.

(newline &optional ARG INTERACTIVE)

Insert a newline, and move to left margin of the new line.
With prefix argument ARG, insert that many newlines.

If ‘electric-indent-mode’ is enabled, this indents the final new line
that it adds, and reindents the preceding line.  To just insert
a newline, use M-x electric-indent-just-newline.
---

So I don't think there's anything we want to change here, and I'm
closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no