* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
@ 2021-03-26 18:12 Tim Lee
2021-03-26 18:32 ` Philipp
` (3 more replies)
0 siblings, 4 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Tim Lee @ 2021-03-26 18:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 47416
The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of 'insert-file-contents' is:
> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
> by calling `format-decode', which see.
It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
"... which see." — See what?
The sentence was introduced by commit bb085aed9593 (2012-12-21).
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 18:12 bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents' Tim Lee
@ 2021-03-26 18:32 ` Philipp
2021-03-26 18:34 ` Gregory Heytings
` (2 subsequent siblings)
3 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Philipp @ 2021-03-26 18:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tim Lee; +Cc: 47416
> Am 26.03.2021 um 19:12 schrieb Tim Lee <progscriptclone@gmail.com>:
>
> The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of 'insert-file-contents' is:
>
>> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
>> by calling `format-decode', which see.
>
> It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
>
> "... which see." — See what?
Apparently this is correct English. "... X, which see" means roughly "To find out more, look up X."
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 18:12 bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents' Tim Lee
2021-03-26 18:32 ` Philipp
@ 2021-03-26 18:34 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-26 18:42 ` Glenn Morris
2021-03-27 18:31 ` Richard Stallman
3 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Heytings @ 2021-03-26 18:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tim Lee; +Cc: 47416
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 660 bytes --]
>
> The last paragraph/sentence in the documentation of
> 'insert-file-contents' is:
>
>> In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
>> by calling `format-decode', which see.
>
> It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
>
> "... which see." — See what?
>
> The sentence was introduced by commit bb085aed9593 (2012-12-21).
>
See the Emacs manual Glossary: q.v. Short for "quod vide" in Latin, which
means "which see". There are about 400 occurrences of "which see" in the
Emacs documentation, it means "look at the documentation of the previous
word/function to find more information".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 18:12 bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents' Tim Lee
2021-03-26 18:32 ` Philipp
2021-03-26 18:34 ` Gregory Heytings
@ 2021-03-26 18:42 ` Glenn Morris
2021-03-26 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-27 18:31 ` Richard Stallman
3 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Glenn Morris @ 2021-03-26 18:42 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 47416
It's one more archaism that Emacs refuses to remove.
Ref https://debbugs.gnu.org/28790
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 18:42 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2021-03-26 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-26 20:27 ` Gregory Heytings
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-03-26 19:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Glenn Morris; +Cc: 47416
> From: Glenn Morris <rgm@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 14:42:30 -0400
>
> It's one more archaism that Emacs refuses to remove.
It's unfair and unkind to use derogatory language for past decisions
just because you disagree with them. Please just let go.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2021-03-26 20:27 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-27 5:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Heytings @ 2021-03-26 20:27 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 47416
What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"? It's not longer (eight
letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both "which see" and
"q.v.".
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 20:27 ` Gregory Heytings
@ 2021-03-27 5:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-27 7:09 ` Gregory Heytings
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-03-27 5:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Heytings; +Cc: 47416
> Date: Fri, 26 Mar 2021 20:27:14 +0000
> From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org>
> cc: 47416@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"? It's not longer (eight
> letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both "which see" and
> "q.v.".
ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more
cryptic. With "which see", at least native English speakers and those
who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand
what it means.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-27 5:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2021-03-27 7:09 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-27 8:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 10+ messages in thread
From: Gregory Heytings @ 2021-03-27 7:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 47416
>> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"? It's not longer
>> (eight letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both
>> "which see" and "q.v.".
>
> ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more
> cryptic. With "which see", at least native English speakers and those
> who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand what
> it means.
>
The only thing I see in that discussion (bug#28790) is: ""Quod vide" (qv)
is arguably more conventional, but for those who haven't encountered the
abbreviation or learned its meaning, it's a much tougher nut to crack."
So it's about the abbreviation, not about the expression in full. I just
tried, finding the meaning of "q.v." is difficult, but finding the meaning
of "quod vide" is immediate.
I tried to find recent occurrences of "which see" in Google Books and
Google Scholar, there are none. There are some occurrences of "on which
see <reference>" or "for {examples, a discussion, an overview, an
assessment, ...} of which see <reference>". It seems that all occurrences
of "which see" are from the 19th century.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-27 7:09 ` Gregory Heytings
@ 2021-03-27 8:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2021-03-27 8:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Gregory Heytings; +Cc: 47416-done
tags 47416 wontfix
thanks
> Date: Sat, 27 Mar 2021 07:09:26 +0000
> From: Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org>
> cc: 47416@debbugs.gnu.org
>
>
> >> What about replacing "which see" with "quod vide"? It's not longer
> >> (eight letters and one space), and is easier to look up than both
> >> "which see" and "q.v.".
> >
> > ISTR that past discussions concluded that q.v. would be even more
> > cryptic. With "which see", at least native English speakers and those
> > who are used to scientific literature would immediately understand what
> > it means.
>
> The only thing I see in that discussion (bug#28790) is: ""Quod vide" (qv)
> is arguably more conventional, but for those who haven't encountered the
> abbreviation or learned its meaning, it's a much tougher nut to crack."
> So it's about the abbreviation, not about the expression in full.
That's your interpretation.
Anyway, we already had this discussion, so I'm closing this bug
report.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
* bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents'
2021-03-26 18:12 bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents' Tim Lee
` (2 preceding siblings ...)
2021-03-26 18:42 ` Glenn Morris
@ 2021-03-27 18:31 ` Richard Stallman
3 siblings, 0 replies; 10+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-03-27 18:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Tim Lee; +Cc: 47416
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> > In addition, this function decodes the inserted text from known formats
> > by calling `format-decode', which see.
> It looks like there is something wrong about this sentence.
> "... which see." — See what?
See `format-decode'.
"which see" after some nominal says to go look at that nominal.
It is slightly old-fashioned usage but not obsolete.
There is no obstacle to stating that sentence some other way if that
is clearer.
--
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 10+ messages in thread
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2021-03-26 18:12 bug#47416: Strange sentence in documentation of 'insert-file-contents' Tim Lee
2021-03-26 18:32 ` Philipp
2021-03-26 18:34 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-26 18:42 ` Glenn Morris
2021-03-26 19:09 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-26 20:27 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-27 5:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-27 7:09 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-27 8:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-27 18:31 ` Richard Stallman
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