From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#13841: 24.3.50; Regression - unreadable `C-h k' help Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 09:20:38 -0800 (GMT-08:00) Message-ID: References: <<98E304F5436E487A91B33E89A04A5851@us.oracle.com> <87sirr1l0d.fsf@building.gnus.org>> <<87h9el2wcj.fsf@gnus.org> > <<87inyze2tq.fsf@web.de>> <<4e02c2a0-6e68-4091-a64d-131bcfc2fc49@default>> <<83wpnfnlf1.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1462036912 17791 80.91.229.3 (30 Apr 2016 17:21:52 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:21:52 +0000 (UTC) Cc: michael_heerdegen@web.de, larsi@gnus.org, 13841@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Apr 30 19:21:32 2016 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1awYaB-0007di-Jp for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 19:21:31 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:59082 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYa7-0001kc-Hz for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:27 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54941) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZx-0001V6-Ms for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:24 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZl-0007Wj-Rz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:12 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.43]:45888) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZl-0007Vb-OL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:05 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZi-0003HC-Av for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:21:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 13841 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 13841-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B13841.146203684812565 (code B ref 13841); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:21:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 13841) by debbugs.gnu.org; 30 Apr 2016 17:20:48 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58225 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZT-0003Gb-U7 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:20:48 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:30548) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1awYZT-0003GL-4v for 13841@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 13:20:47 -0400 Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id u3UHKedt003548 (version=TLSv1 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:20:41 GMT Original-Received: from userv0121.oracle.com (userv0121.oracle.com [156.151.31.72]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3UHKesv013133 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:20:40 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0019.oracle.com (abhmp0019.oracle.com [141.146.116.25]) by userv0121.oracle.com (8.13.8/8.13.8) with ESMTP id u3UHKd4S003683; Sat, 30 Apr 2016 17:20:39 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83wpnfnlf1.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9 (901082) [OL 12.0.6744.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:117394 Archived-At: > If you don't mind the Lisp form, you shouldn't mind the byte-compiled > form, either. Excuse me, but this is sheer nonsense. I find it really hard to believe that you are saying such a thing, Eli. You who care so much about reasonably understandable messages and doc for users. Emacs users often (perhaps usually) read straightforward Lisp code. They do not read byte-code (except for rare exceptions - perhaps). Source code is intended to be read by humans. Compiled code, not so much. > And if you cannot read bytecode, you can disassemble > it, then it should be as crystal-clear to you as the Emacs 23 vintage > result. Wunderbar. That's what you want to offer users, as opposed to fixing this bug. Just tell them, when they see gibberish from `C-h f' that this is no bug but Emacs doing everything it can to help them. ALL THEY NEED TO DO, to decipher the gibberish, is to disassemble it. Sheesh. Really hard to believe this. > > And in this particular case, at least, a simple fix should > > be to use a named function and not an anonymous one (in > > `menu-bar-line-wrapping-menu'). >=20 > Indeed. And in any other case like this. >=20 > So let's stop talking about "regressions", and start talking about the > real problem here. Which also suggests an easy solution. Well, it is a regression. But if you don't want to talk about it, then don't(!) - please just fix it. > > But a more general solution should be sought to the various > > problems introduced by the aggressive/eager byte-compiling > > that is the underlying cause of this regression. >=20 > A more general solution is not to have lambda functions hang on keys > and mouse clicks. That's not a more general solution to aggressive/eager byte-compiling. That's the same "easy solution" that we should apply to fixing this regression. But that's all we need, to close this particular bug.