bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

I see this when HELLO is displayed:

Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");


In GNU Emacs 28.0.50 (build 16, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.22.12, cairo version 1.14.8)
 of 2020-10-01 built on protected.rcdrun.com
Repository revision: 0aa1e2d9d03cf4c10b58c64067620bb99a41f9e9
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.11907000
System Description: Hyperbola GNU/Linux-libre

Configured using:
 'configure --prefix=/package/text/emacs-2020-10-01 --with-modules
 --without-gpm'

Configured features:
XPM JPEG TIFF GIF PNG RSVG CAIRO SOUND DBUS GSETTINGS GLIB NOTIFY
INOTIFY ACL GNUTLS LIBXML2 FREETYPE HARFBUZZ M17N_FLT LIBOTF ZLIB
TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS GTK3 X11 XDBE XIM MODULES THREADS JSON PDUMPER
LCMS2

Important settings:
  value of $LC_ALL: de_DE.UTF-8
  value of $LANG: de_DE.UTF-8
  value of $XMODIFIERS: @im=exwm-xim
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Fundamental

Minor modes in effect:
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  shell-dirtrack-mode: t
  timeclock-mode-line-display: t
  strokes-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  immortal-scratch-mode: t
  helm-mode: t
  electric-pair-mode: t
  display-time-mode: t
  display-battery-mode: t
  jabber-activity-mode: t
  persistent-scratch-autosave-mode: t
  async-bytecomp-package-mode: t
  text-scale-mode: t
  save-place-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  use-hard-newlines: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t
  buffer-read-only: t
  column-number-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  view-mode: t

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bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
>
> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
(the language).

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Andrea Corallo via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
>>
>> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>
> It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
> (the language).

FWIW I must admit I really liked it the first time I've seen it :)

  Andrea

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
>>
>> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>
> It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
> (the language).

So should we remove the joke or just close this bug?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> So should we remove the joke or just close this bug?

I think the bug's closed already?  The joke is amusing (unless you're
from that region), so it should probably stay, I guess.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> [2020-10-11 12:05]:
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> >> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
> >>
> >> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
> >
> > It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
> > (the language).
> 
> So should we remove the joke or just close this bug?

From view point of Jawa people, they will probably not understand Java
programming language.

From view point that Java is large island, with large number of people
there, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java reference to 145
millions, if I would be one of those, I would not understand it, and
we can also think that some could be negatively impacted that their
language is written that way. Thus from their viewpoint, joke could
not be understood.

That page may be most welcoming page among all.

Myself I cannot assume that everybody uses Emacs for programming, even
if I do, but cannot assume that. I have been spending quite nice time
in Agrigento, Italy, using Emacs for writing book and articles.

Myself I cannot speak for people on that island, you could ask them if
that is alright.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> [2020-10-11 12:09]:
> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > So should we remove the joke or just close this bug?
> 
> I think the bug's closed already?  The joke is amusing (unless you're
> from that region), so it should probably stay, I guess.

Removing joke is lack of humour.

It would not be good to remove it.

On the other hand, 145 millions people there don't get proper "Hello",
so that is still a bug.

Sorry, I was thinking it was some programming mistake, I never thought
of Java programming language, as I don't use it.

I am proposing to make a button on Javanese Jawa line, so that their
Hello remains there, but if user presses the button, that the joke
appears.

(defun button-pressed (button)
  (message (format "Hello!")))

(define-button-type 'custom-button
  'action 'button-pressed
  'follow-link t
  'help-echo "Click Button"
  'help-args "test")

(make-button 1 10 :type 'custom-button)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> I think the bug's closed already?  The joke is amusing (unless you're
>> from that region), so it should probably stay, I guess.
>
> Removing joke is lack of humour.
>
> It would not be good to remove it.
>
> On the other hand, 145 millions people there don't get proper "Hello",
> so that is still a bug.

Pls don't let us overreact. There are many jokes I don't understand - I
won't request to remove them.

Emacs would be a boring place if I understand everything.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> >> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
>> >>
>> >> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>> >
>> > It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
>> > (the language).

Indeed, that was a stupid joke as these reports indicate.
The name of the programming language refers to coffee,
not to the language of people inhabiting the island.

> From view point of Jawa people, they will probably not understand Java
> programming language.
>
> From view point that Java is large island, with large number of people
> there, please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java reference to 145
> millions, if I would be one of those, I would not understand it, and
> we can also think that some could be negatively impacted that their
> language is written that way. Thus from their viewpoint, joke could
> not be understood.

I completely agree.  The etc/HELLO was intended to be not a place
for dubious jokes, but a file that demonstrates to users that
non-ASCII characters of their scripts are supported in Emacs.
So for languages whose greetings don't contain non-ASCII letters,
such non-ASCII letters are presented in their language names.
This is the case for français, español, slovenščina, Türkçe.

But there is no point in showing ASCII-only letters for Javanese.
So I replaced this line with the proper Javanese script, and now
Javanese people will enjoy seeing that their script is supported by Emacs.

> I am proposing to make a button on Javanese Jawa line, so that their
> Hello remains there, but if user presses the button, that the joke appears.

Feel free to add such a button if you want.

PS: While at it, I also added support for Belarusian language in etc/HELLO.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-18 23:33]:
> >> >> I see this when HELLO is displayed:
> >> >>
> >> >> Javanese (Jawa)	System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
> >> >
> >> > It's a (pretty weak) joke about Java (the computer language) and Jawa
> >> > (the language).
> 
> Indeed, that was a stupid joke as these reports indicate.
> The name of the programming language refers to coffee,
> not to the language of people inhabiting the island.

The coffee comes from there, and my dictionary says that Java is often
used as word for coffee in United States, somebody can confirm.

> PS: While at it, I also added support for Belarusian language in
> etc/HELLO.

If it is nice, then fine, yet too many similar cyrilics are not
necessary in the file, as purpose is to show how it handles
characters, there are so many languages out there, it would not be
good to have too many with same kind of alphabets.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I wrote some code in Java once.
It was in the Lisp language, but I was in Java at the time.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Drew Adams]

> I wrote some code in Java once.
> It was in the Lisp language, but I was in Java at the time.

Feature request: Lisp to have its own country.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2020-10-19 06:47]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
> I wrote some code in Java once.
> It was in the Lisp language, but I was in Java at the time.

Buahahaha.

I also wish to write in Java one day.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> PS: While at it, I also added support for Belarusian language in
>> etc/HELLO.
>
> If it is nice, then fine, yet too many similar cyrilics are not
> necessary in the file, as purpose is to show how it handles
> characters, there are so many languages out there, it would not be
> good to have too many with same kind of alphabets.

You may not recognize this, but the word was intended to contain
a Cyrillic diacritic to demonstrate that Emacs has no problem
in using diacritics in Cyrillic.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

> I wrote some code in Java once.
> It was in the Lisp language, but I was in Java at the time.

Last Friday I had to rewrite some legacy Java code in Ruby.
The length of original Java code was about 50 lines.
After rewriting in Ruby it takes only 3 lines!
(Ruby is much more Lisp language than Java.)
It would be a disservice to associate a group of people
with such a notoriously bad programming language as Java.
Anyway, now I relieved from the responsibility
for such controversy.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> I wrote some code in Java once.
>> It was in the Lisp language, but I was in Java at the time.
>
> Feature request: Lisp to have its own country.

Not a country, but a natural language.
So you can add Lisp to etc/HELLO,
if you are a native speaker of Lisp.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-19 11:15]:
> >> PS: While at it, I also added support for Belarusian language in
> >> etc/HELLO.
> >
> > If it is nice, then fine, yet too many similar cyrilics are not
> > necessary in the file, as purpose is to show how it handles
> > characters, there are so many languages out there, it would not be
> > good to have too many with same kind of alphabets.
> 
> You may not recognize this, but the word was intended to contain
> a Cyrillic diacritic to demonstrate that Emacs has no problem
> in using diacritics in Cyrillic.

I know that, I do not protest.

I just say that one of Cyrillic or let us say 2 of them are enough, as
Cyrillic is similar in many countries.

First alphabet I learned was Cyrillic, by the way. I cannot be
possibly against it, just it can be too much that overrides the
purpose of showing characters.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

Hi,

> Indeed, that was a stupid joke as these reports indicate.
> The name of the programming language refers to coffee,
> not to the language of people inhabiting the island.

It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
we really remove *every* joke from Emacs? I don't believe so.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 10:55:08 +0300
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>  43887@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > If it is nice, then fine, yet too many similar cyrilics are not
> > necessary in the file, as purpose is to show how it handles
> > characters, there are so many languages out there, it would not be
> > good to have too many with same kind of alphabets.
> 
> You may not recognize this, but the word was intended to contain
> a Cyrillic diacritic to demonstrate that Emacs has no problem
> in using diacritics in Cyrillic.

That's okay, but then maybe we should remove some other Cyrillic line
there, because the file is really for showing off scripts, not
languages (if it were the latter, we'd need to make it orders of
magnitude longer).

Btw, how is that diacritics different from what we have on the Russian
line?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 11:46:22 +0200
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>,
>  Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>, 43887@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:
> 
> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs?

I certainly hope we won't.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
>> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs?
>
> I certainly hope we won't.

So we can revert this change in etc/HELLO?

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Cc: juri@linkov.net,  larsi@gnus.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com,
>   bugs@gnu.support,  43887@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 16:57:23 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
> >> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs?
> >
> > I certainly hope we won't.
> 
> So we can revert this change in etc/HELLO?

I would be in favor of reverting it, yes.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> >> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
>> >> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs?
>> >
>> > I certainly hope we won't.
>>
>> So we can revert this change in etc/HELLO?
>
> I would be in favor of reverting it, yes.

So let's wait for the result of your discussion about the Belarus entry,
and then wo could do.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Stefan Kangas]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

>> Indeed, that was a stupid joke as these reports indicate.
>> The name of the programming language refers to coffee,
>> not to the language of people inhabiting the island.
>
> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs? I don't believe so.

It's not really binary though, is it?  We could remove some jokes but
keep others.

In this case, it seems to me that we get more mileage out of using the
Javanese script than keeping the (fairly weak) joke.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 15:41:57 +0000
> Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>, 43887@debbugs.gnu.org,
>  Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>
> 
> > It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
> > we really remove *every* joke from Emacs? I don't believe so.
> 
> It's not really binary though, is it?  We could remove some jokes but
> keep others.

Up until now, each joke that we discussed got removed.  So it sounds
like it's really binary, and in one direction: remove them all.

> In this case, it seems to me that we get more mileage out of using the
> Javanese script than keeping the (fairly weak) joke.

We could keep both.  Would that be OK with you?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Up until now, each joke that we discussed got removed.  So it sounds
> like it's really binary, and in one direction: remove them all.

It might be that all the jokes that have been discussed have been bad,
and that's why they've been discussed.

I think the Java joke is kinda funny, but it's a name-based joke, which
means that the everybody else finds the joke surprising and funny, but a
Javanese person will have heard it a gazillion times before, so it
becomes depressing.  (Anybody with a "funny name" will have heard every
variation of the joke from any number of people.)

So I'd rather remove it.

And that's not a binary vote for "remove all jokes".

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Drew Adams]

> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs? I don't believe so.

That would be an undecidable undertaking. ;-)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> [2020-10-19 19:07]:
> > In this case, it seems to me that we get more mileage out of using the
> > Javanese script than keeping the (fairly weak) joke.
> 
> We could keep both.  Would that be OK with you?

Good idea.

Javanese script looks beautiful and you could wrap it in Java.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I think the Java joke is kinda funny, but it's a name-based joke, which
> means that the everybody else finds the joke surprising and funny, but a
> Javanese person will have heard it a gazillion times before, so it
> becomes depressing.  (Anybody with a "funny name" will have heard every
> variation of the joke from any number of people.)

I'm a German. Believe me, I've heard much more jokes about Germany and the
Germans than you can imagine. So what.

Best regards, Mich "Don't mention the war" ael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Andrea Corallo via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
>
>> I think the Java joke is kinda funny, but it's a name-based joke, which
>> means that the everybody else finds the joke surprising and funny, but a
>> Javanese person will have heard it a gazillion times before, so it
>> becomes depressing.  (Anybody with a "funny name" will have heard every
>> variation of the joke from any number of people.)
>
> I'm a German. Believe me, I've heard much more jokes about Germany and the
> Germans than you can imagine. So what.

Hi all,

I possibly had an even more intense experience as an Italian.  Having
some sense of humor really helps going trough these situations making
some fun out of them.

I'm also for keeping the joke, I like the idea of Emacs keeping some
humor around.

Regards

  Andrea (spagetti-code writer)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>>> It is the nature of a joke that it isn't understood by everybody. Shall
>>> we really remove *every* joke from Emacs?

etc/HELLO still contains enough puns that don't offend anyone
and don't provoke bug reports.

>> I certainly hope we won't.
>
> So we can revert this change in etc/HELLO?

Not to revert, but to change the authorship of this joke and to adapt it to
the added Javanese script if you want to take responsibility for handling
future complaints ;-)  As for me, I unsubscribe from that kind of jokes,
I prefer to make fun of corporations, politicians and celebrities,
but not of unsuspecting groups of people.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

> Btw, how is that diacritics different from what we have on the Russian
> line?

The intention was to add a word with the diacritics letter Ў,
but I don't know a greeting with that letter.

Why the requirement for that file to contain only greetings?
Would it make sense to relax the requirement and allow words
that are not greetings?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>
> Cc: bugs@gnu.support,  larsi@gnus.org,  stefankangas@gmail.com,
>   43887@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2020 23:31:35 +0300
> 
> > Btw, how is that diacritics different from what we have on the Russian
> > line?
> 
> The intention was to add a word with the diacritics letter Ў,
> but I don't know a greeting with that letter.

My question still stands: we already have a Cyrillic diacritic on the
Russian line.  Is that not sufficient?

> Why the requirement for that file to contain only greetings?

It's the simplest concept.  And the greeting is not the only word: the
name of the script itself is also part of that.

> Would it make sense to relax the requirement and allow words
> that are not greetings?

Like what?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Mattias Engdegård]

Eli is entirely right -- this file isn't a catalogue of how to say hello in different languages but a way to show off Emacs's character set capabilities. (Somewhat less impressive these days than when it was created, but nothing to be sneezed at.)

I therefore propose removal of the all-ASCII lines for: C (silly), Dutch, Emacs (not very useful for someone already looking at the buffer), Italian and Norwegian.

There are also way too many lines that only demonstrate the Latin-1 subset, of which we should keep only one or two: Danish, Estonian, Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Spanish, Swedish and Turkish.

Of these, I suggest keeping German (for the ß which is sometimes rendered ambiguously to share glyph with Greek β) and Spanish (for the non-alphabetic ¡), or maybe Estonian (smallest language of the bunch; I root for underdogs) or Finnish (for its glorious salvo of 'ä's).

Every humdrum line is one that displaces an exciting one. If this file has any relevance today, it should be the variety and wonder of human writing systems that Emacs can display.

(I also question the oversized copyright notice for this file but at least it's relegated to the bottom where nobody will read it. It feels like one of those corporate email signatures.)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

Hi Juri,

> Not to revert, but to change the authorship of this joke and to adapt it to
> the added Javanese script if you want to take responsibility for handling
> future complaints ;-)

Will do, no problem for me. Just one question: "emacs -Q" on both Fedora
32 and Ubuntu 20.04 don't show proper symbols for this (and TaiViet). I
guess it needs another font to be loaded?

> As for me, I unsubscribe from that kind of jokes,
> I prefer to make fun of corporations, politicians and celebrities,
> but not of unsuspecting groups of people.

All of them are valid targets for jokes. But there might be simiular
controversies, when such jokes appear in Emacs.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Stefan Kangas]

Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@acm.org> writes:

> I therefore propose removal of the all-ASCII lines for: C (silly),
> Dutch, Emacs (not very useful for someone already looking at the
> buffer), Italian and Norwegian.
>
> There are also way too many lines that only demonstrate the Latin-1
> subset, of which we should keep only one or two: Danish, Estonian,
> Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Spanish, Swedish and Turkish.

You have a point, of course.  But how long before we get patches to add
these languages back, and then get to have another round of discussing
this?

I think it's better to just leave it all alone.  The list is long, but
not overly so.  If we want to avoid having to scroll for testing
purposes, we could instead extend the "Non-ASCII examples" section at
the top.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 20 Oct 2020 08:05:39 -0400, Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> said:

    Stefan> Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@acm.org> writes:
    >> I therefore propose removal of the all-ASCII lines for: C (silly),
    >> Dutch, Emacs (not very useful for someone already looking at the
    >> buffer), Italian and Norwegian.
    >> 
    >> There are also way too many lines that only demonstrate the Latin-1
    >> subset, of which we should keep only one or two: Danish, Estonian,
    >> Finnish, French, German, Hungarian, Spanish, Swedish and Turkish.

    Stefan> You have a point, of course.  But how long before we get patches to add
    Stefan> these languages back, and then get to have another round of discussing
    Stefan> this?

    Stefan> I think it's better to just leave it all alone.  The list is long, but
    Stefan> not overly so.  If we want to avoid having to scroll for testing
    Stefan> purposes, we could instead extend the "Non-ASCII examples" section at
    Stefan> the top.

The list being long is a feature: when you've screwed something up
that causes a crash or a slowdown with the more esoteric scripts
towards the end of the file, having to scroll gives you the opportunity
to set your debugging up beforehand :-)

Robert
-- 

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Arthur Miller]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:
>
> Hi Juri,
>
>> Not to revert, but to change the authorship of this joke and to adapt it to
>> the added Javanese script if you want to take responsibility for handling
>> future complaints ;-)
>
> Will do, no problem for me. Just one question: "emacs -Q" on both Fedora
> 32 and Ubuntu 20.04 don't show proper symbols for this (and TaiViet). I
> guess it needs another font to be loaded?
>
>> As for me, I unsubscribe from that kind of jokes,
>> I prefer to make fun of corporations, politicians and celebrities,
>> but not of unsuspecting groups of people.
>
> All of them are valid targets for jokes. But there might be simiular
> controversies, when such jokes appear in Emacs.
>
> Best regards, Michael.

I had a good laugh; not so much that I didn't see some version berfore,
but because it was so nerdy, so I was laughing more to that.

I don't find that joke offensive in any way; but non-programmers
don't understand the programmign humor; but then how many of
non-programmers would look at that file. I personally didn't even know
it existed untill you started the discussion.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Mattias Engdegård]

20 okt. 2020 kl. 14.05 skrev Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>:

> You have a point, of course.  But how long before we get patches to add
> these languages back, and then get to have another round of discussing
> this?

By that reasoning we can never remove anything from the list and will have to accept that it will keep growing indefinitely. A tad defeatist, don't you think?

It's the other way around: if the list contains Danish, Finnish and Swedish, why not add Norwegian? If it has a silly entry for C, why not add one for Pascal? And so on.

The file says in the very beginning:

  It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
  some of the character sets that Emacs supports.

If you think this text is insufficient to deter ill-advised additions, we can strengthen it.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Arthur Miller]

Mattias Engdegård <mattiase@acm.org> writes:

> 20 okt. 2020 kl. 14.05 skrev Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>:
>
>> You have a point, of course.  But how long before we get patches to add
>> these languages back, and then get to have another round of discussing
>> this?
>
> By that reasoning we can never remove anything from the list and will have to accept that it will keep growing indefinitely. A tad defeatist, don't you think?
>
> It's the other way around: if the list contains Danish, Finnish and Swedish, why
> not add Norwegian? If it has a silly entry for C, why not add one for Pascal?
> And so on.
Because Lisp still gotten it's country! Once we have a Lisp land, we can
add a silly entry for Lisp too.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> > Btw, how is that diacritics different from what we have on the Russian
>> > line?
>>
>> The intention was to add a word with the diacritics letter Ў,
>> but I don't know a greeting with that letter.
>
> My question still stands: we already have a Cyrillic diacritic on the
> Russian line.  Is that not sufficient?

The Russian line has COMBINING ACUTE ACCENT, whereas the proposed diacritic is
COMBINING BREVE.  I know no other language that has a letter with COMBINING BREVE.

>> Would it make sense to relax the requirement and allow words
>> that are not greetings?
>
> Like what?

Maybe also allow phrases how to say "Welcome" and "Cheers!"

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

> I therefore propose removal of the all-ASCII lines for:
> C (silly), Dutch, Emacs (not very useful for someone already looking at the buffer), Italian and Norwegian.

C is the default locale.  Removing other languages would offend their native speakers.
Since there is no limit of the file size, I see no problem to have as many languages
as users enjoy seeing in this file.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> Not to revert, but to change the authorship of this joke and to adapt it to
>> the added Javanese script if you want to take responsibility for handling
>> future complaints ;-)
>
> Will do, no problem for me. Just one question: "emacs -Q" on both Fedora
> 32 and Ubuntu 20.04 don't show proper symbols for this (and TaiViet). I
> guess it needs another font to be loaded?

Yes, an additional font is needed.  It seems the latest Mint installs it
by default.  On earlier versions all additional fonts can be installed with:

  sudo apt-get install fonts-noto-core

I guess a similar package should exist for Ubuntu (not sure for Fedora).
Then no empty boxes are shown in etc/HELLO.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >> Would it make sense to relax the requirement and allow words
  > >> that are not greetings?
  > >
  > > Like what?

  > Maybe also allow phrases how to say "Welcome" and "Cheers!"

I suggest we spend our time on other issues that will affect users
more.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> adapt it to the added Javanese script if you want to take
>> responsibility for handling future complaints ;-)
>
> Will do, no problem for me.

Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
How it would look in JavaScript?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
> How it would look in JavaScript?

Don't know, I don't speak JavaScript.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-21 09:59]:
> >> adapt it to the added Javanese script if you want to take
> >> responsibility for handling future complaints ;-)
> >
> > Will do, no problem for me.
> 
> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
> How it would look in JavaScript?

Javanese is spoken on island Java, not on island Javascript

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_language

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

According to translation the above is not "Hello" but "Good
afternoon".

Good afternoon should be rather written between the quotes as: Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!

So please update it to be correct:

System.out.println("Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!");

Reference:
https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript

To get the representation, enter: Sugeng siang! in left text field,
you will get result on the right text field.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:

Hi Juri,

>> Will do, no problem for me. Just one question: "emacs -Q" on both Fedora
>> 32 and Ubuntu 20.04 don't show proper symbols for this (and TaiViet). I
>> guess it needs another font to be loaded?
>
> Yes, an additional font is needed.  It seems the latest Mint installs it
> by default.  On earlier versions all additional fonts can be installed with:
>
>   sudo apt-get install fonts-noto-core
>
> I guess a similar package should exist for Ubuntu (not sure for Fedora).
> Then no empty boxes are shown in etc/HELLO.

Thanks, that helps also for Ubuntu. On Fedora, I haven't found a
comprehensive font package similar to this, so I have applied

$ sudo yum install google-noto-sans-javanese-fonts google-noto-sans-tai-viet-fonts

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

>> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
>> How it would look in JavaScript?
>
> Javanese is spoken on island Java, not on island Javascript

Yes, so I keep Java.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>
> According to translation the above is not "Hello" but "Good
> afternoon".
>
> Good afternoon should be rather written between the quotes as: Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!
>
> So please update it to be correct:
>
> System.out.println("Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!");
>
> Reference:
> https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript

Thanks. However, since I don't speak Javanese, and I don't know how good
automatic translators are, I haven't touched the Javanese symbols, and I
have added just the Java construct around. Let's see, whether there's
somebody with Javanese background who could clarify.

Committed to master.

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Arthur Miller]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
>
>> System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>>
>> According to translation the above is not "Hello" but "Good
>> afternoon".
>>
>> Good afternoon should be rather written between the quotes as: Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!
>>
>> So please update it to be correct:
>>
>> System.out.println("Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!");
>>
>> Reference:
>> https://lingojam.com/JavaneseScript
>
> Thanks. However, since I don't speak Javanese, and I don't know how good
> automatic translators are, I haven't touched the Javanese symbols, and I
> have added just the Java construct around. Let's see, whether there's
> somebody with Javanese background who could clarify.
>
> Committed to master.
>
> Best regards, Michael.

Can we keep the joke, and just rename the file to something like
"supported-scripts" or similar. So non-programmers would understand ...
no guarantee though :-).

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Michael Albinus]

Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes:

Hi Arthur,

> Can we keep the joke, and just rename the file to something like
> "supported-scripts" or similar. So non-programmers would understand ...
> no guarantee though :-).

The name of the file doesn't matter. Most people will see its contents
via "C-h h".

Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:41:20 +0200
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>, stefankangas@gmail.com,
>  Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>, 43887@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Can we keep the joke, and just rename the file to something like
> > "supported-scripts" or similar. So non-programmers would understand ...
> > no guarantee though :-).
> 
> The name of the file doesn't matter. Most people will see its contents
> via "C-h h".

Right.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[arthur miller]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1180 bytes --]

Ah, I see.

But that shortcut is not something universal. For people to invoke it, they are probably reading about it in some context where is it properly mentioned?  Is it possible to make it clear there it is about scripts supported by Emacs, not about the greeting itself.




-------- Originalmeddelande --------
Från: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
Datum: 2020-10-21 16:55 (GMT+01:00)
Till: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
Kopia: arthur.miller@live.com, larsi@gnus.org, juri@linkov.net, stefankangas@gmail.com, bugs@gnu.support, 43887@debbugs.gnu.org
Ämne: Re: bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

> From: Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de>
> Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2020 13:41:20 +0200
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>, stefankangas@gmail.com,
>  Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support>, 43887@debbugs.gnu.org
>
> > Can we keep the joke, and just rename the file to something like
> > "supported-scripts" or similar. So non-programmers would understand ...
> > no guarantee though :-).
>
> The name of the file doesn't matter. Most people will see its contents
> via "C-h h".

Right.

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2056 bytes --]

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Mattias Engdegård]

20 okt. 2020 kl. 20.20 skrev Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>:

> C is the default locale.  Removing other languages would offend their native speakers.

As a native speaker of one of the languages proposed for removal, I can assure you that there is no danger of anyone taking offense. Well, maybe the odd C compiler may grumble -- they are known for being touchy.

Anyway, Richard observed that this file is quite unimportant and he is right about that, so I'll follow his advice.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Stefan Kangas]

arthur miller <arthur.miller@live.com> writes:

> But that shortcut is not something universal. For people to invoke it,
> they are probably reading about it in some context where is it
> properly mentioned?  Is it possible to make it clear there it is about
> scripts supported by Emacs, not about the greeting itself.

HELLO already says at the top:

This is a list of ways to say hello in various languages.
It is not intended to be comprehensive, but to demonstrate
some of the character sets that Emacs supports.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
>> How it would look in JavaScript?
>
> Don't know, I don't speak JavaScript.

It seems in JavaScript the function closest to printing is

  console.log("Hello");

It would be nicer to use this instead of Java.
Hopefully, this will provoke less questions.
And JavaScript is more functional than Java,
so JavaScript is closer to Emacs Lisp :-)

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
>> How it would look in JavaScript?
>
> Javanese is spoken on island Java, not on island Javascript
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_language

But Javanese script is a script like JavaScript:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

> System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");
>
> According to translation the above is not "Hello" but "Good afternoon".

Since Javanese native speaker explicitly asked us to use
"Good afternoon" instead of "Hello", we shouldn't disregard
the requests from native speakers.  Please see the request in
http://debbugs.gnu.org/759

> Good afternoon should be rather written between the quotes as: Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!
>
> So please update it to be correct:
>
> System.out.println("Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!");

Sorry, but this string is gibberish.

Perhaps you tried to transliterate the string with the capital letter "S".
Please change all letters to lower-case before transliterating them.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-21 20:47]:
> >> Wait, shouldn't Javanese script be printed using JavaScript, not Java!
> >> How it would look in JavaScript?
> >
> > Javanese is spoken on island Java, not on island Javascript
> >
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_language
> 
> But Javanese script is a script like JavaScript:
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Javanese_script

Then it becomes only Javascript or Java without Javanese script at
all, which would more fit the purpose of HELLO file.

For example Emacs is written as: ꦼꦩꦄꦕꦱ (I think they do not have
capitalized letters).

Lisp is written as ꦭꦶꦱꦥ

and javascript is written as ꦗꦄvꦄꦱꦕꦫꦶꦥꦠ

java is ꦗꦄvꦄ

Hello is written as halo and in Javanese script ꦲꦄꦭꦺꦴ

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-21 20:47]:
> > System.out.println("Sꦸꦒꦼꦤꦒ ꦱꦶꦄꦤꦒ!");
> 
> Sorry, but this string is gibberish.
> 
> Perhaps you tried to transliterate the string with the capital letter "S".
> Please change all letters to lower-case before transliterating them.

I just discovered it

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Tomas Nordin]

Michael Albinus <michael.albinus@gmx.de> writes:

> Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> writes:
>
> Hi Juri,
>
>> Not to revert, but to change the authorship of this joke and to adapt it to
>> the added Javanese script if you want to take responsibility for handling
>> future complaints ;-)
>
> Will do, no problem for me. Just one question: "emacs -Q" on both Fedora
> 32 and Ubuntu 20.04 don't show proper symbols for this (and TaiViet). I
> guess it needs another font to be loaded?
>
>> As for me, I unsubscribe from that kind of jokes,
>> I prefer to make fun of corporations, politicians and celebrities,
>> but not of unsuspecting groups of people.
>
> All of them are valid targets for jokes. But there might be simiular
> controversies, when such jokes appear in Emacs.

I never understood that line as a joke targeting a group of people, more
like targeting the naming of a programming language.

>
> Best regards, Michael.

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

> I never understood that line as a joke targeting a group of people, more
> like targeting the naming of a programming language.

Would you agree that since we use Javanese script now, we
should target the programming language Javascript instead of Java?

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Jean Louis]

* Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net> [2020-10-22 10:40]:
> > I never understood that line as a joke targeting a group of people, more
> > like targeting the naming of a programming language.
> 
> Would you agree that since we use Javanese script now, we
> should target the programming language Javascript instead of Java?

But is Javanese going to be shown?

-- 
Jean Louis

bug#43887: 28.0.50; in HELLO: Javanese (Jawa) System.out.println("Sugeng siang!");

[Juri Linkov]

>> > I never understood that line as a joke targeting a group of people, more
>> > like targeting the naming of a programming language.
>>
>> Would you agree that since we use Javanese script now, we
>> should target the programming language JavaScript instead of Java?
>
> But is Javanese going to be shown?

Yes, Javanese is still shown, so I changed Java to JavaScript,
because this is much better: we are making a pun from the phrase
"Javanese script", not targeting people of the Java island.