From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.ciao.gmane.io!not-for-mail From: Paul Eggert Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#40671: [DOC] modify literal objects Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:07 -0700 Organization: UCLA Computer Science Department Message-ID: References: <87v9lzmdrw.fsf@laposte.net> <57532862-f6ec-84b6-13af-8a8985366ff0@cs.ucla.edu> <127084e8-c62a-ec8c-5d40-8c4280861519@cs.ucla.edu> <566aa1bf-444d-4cff-aed8-5b83fcd60107@default> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="ciao.gmane.io:159.69.161.202"; logging-data="109848"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:68.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/68.7.0 Cc: Kevin Vigouroux , 40671@debbugs.gnu.org To: Drew Adams , Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Apr 20 00:53:20 2020 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIoR-000STd-QI for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 20 Apr 2020 00:53:19 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:48448 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQIoQ-0005rR-Ou for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:53:18 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:42318 helo=eggs1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInC-0004Ml-TP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs1p.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInB-0003xI-4K for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:01 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:34636) by eggs1p.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInA-0003x1-Kd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:00 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQInB-000357-RD for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:52:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Paul Eggert Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:52:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 40671 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 40671-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B40671.158733667711796 (code B ref 40671); Sun, 19 Apr 2020 22:52:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 40671) by debbugs.gnu.org; 19 Apr 2020 22:51:17 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46182 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQImT-00034C-1X for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:51:17 -0400 Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([131.179.128.68]:45276) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1jQImR-00033z-Jy for 40671@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 18:51:16 -0400 Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id 95EA8160065; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:08 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10032) with ESMTP id XHWGHEavnVDw; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTP id D75F716008E; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at zimbra.cs.ucla.edu Original-Received: from zimbra.cs.ucla.edu ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (zimbra.cs.ucla.edu [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10026) with ESMTP id LoQkxSzTlUY2; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.9] (cpe-23-242-74-103.socal.res.rr.com [23.242.74.103]) by zimbra.cs.ucla.edu (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A7A61160065; Sun, 19 Apr 2020 15:51:07 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <566aa1bf-444d-4cff-aed8-5b83fcd60107@default> Content-Language: en-US X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:178680 Archived-At: On 4/19/20 3:24 PM, Drew Adams wrote: > Don't say "constant". Say "don't try to change it". That's too long and awkward a phrase for use in lots of places around the manual. We need a simple noun phrase to describe the concept; this is Documentation 101. One possible substitute is "literal object", as Mattias pointed out. Another possibility is "immutable object". Perhaps others might be better. > The only cases that are problematic are those where > you can think your code modifies something (anew) > when in fact it might not. No, that's not the only issue. If you modify some of these "constants" (or "literal objects" or whatever term you like), the behavior is undefined: Emacs can crash or remove your home directory or whatever. There is no checking. > By mischaracterizing not mutable as "should not be > changed" (instead of "cannot be changed"), you can > give the false impression that the opposite is true: > if something is mutable then there's no reason you > shouldn't change it. I don't see that false impression being given. But if it is being given, presumably the problem could be fixed by appropriate wording changes. Specific suggestions welcome.