From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: henri-biard@francemel.fr Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#49039: Aspell in Emacs Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:20:29 +0200 (CEST) Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_NextPart_001_60c8fd7d_7e3_466a2bed" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="36222"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 49039@debbugs.gnu.org To: "Eli Zaretskii" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Jun 15 21:21:12 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcY-0009Av-Lb for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:21:10 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52500 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcX-00004u-MJ for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:21:09 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:41694) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcQ-0008WI-SS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:21:02 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:39325) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcQ-0006gb-K2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:21:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcQ-0000v2-Cj for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:21:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: henri-biard@francemel.fr Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:21:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 49039 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: notabug Original-Received: via spool by 49039-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B49039.16237848463492 (code B ref 49039); Tue, 15 Jun 2021 19:21:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 49039) by debbugs.gnu.org; 15 Jun 2021 19:20:46 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50871 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEcA-0000uG-09 for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:20:46 -0400 Original-Received: from msg-1.mailo.com ([213.182.54.11]:39870) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltEc7-0000u1-9X for 49039@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 15:20:44 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=simple/simple; d=francemel.fr; s=mailo; t=1623784829; bh=dyFV5yRLSaqVy4vd0M3nfoYRCUlH4VB+A6TZkzwNCr4=; h=X-EA-Auth:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:MIME-Version:X-Mailer: Message-ID:In-Reply-To:Content-Type; b=csRIJOOXhagLn35T9qKvL9fYZxl7iQebuC5F3c3hO9YIkv0WGk/76V/2jdbOIaXfe MjXN313vb7kjVX4ybpMK1IEcN0FVPlEbulWuAm2M0JNLAYWpDvQqKkwNnjAbvgyEyw /0MPGqhhuc7+/Afv7TJHd76ueFimIe9KCcIKrKnk= Original-Received: by www-7.mailo.com with http webmail; Tue, 15 Jun 2021 21:20:29 +0200 (CEST) X-EA-Auth: SWAjcN7lmBTlTYsxcu3QjpRW2F7SqmVDPNAmCXv8anYqphf0RVEUnJfcIXBulH16WUq7LmptFv7hrIMqHbj+xYjO+Qsvx9fD X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: COMS/EA21.01/r20210601 In-Reply-To: <83v96f2e0p.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:208592 Archived-At: ------=_NextPart_001_60c8fd7d_7e3_466a2bed Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Eli Zaretskii To: henri-biard@francemel.fr Subject: Re: bug#49039: Aspell in Emacs Date: 15/06/2021 20:12:22 Europe/Paris Cc: 49039@debbugs.gnu.org >> From: henri-biard@francemel.fr >> Cc: 49039@debbugs.gnu.org >> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:03:53 +0200 (CEST) >>=20 >> > > It looks to me that it is basically a hack of ispell, likely the re= sult that it was easier=20 >> > > and quicker for the developer to do it that way. Correct me if I am= wrong. >>=20 >> > You are wrong. Please read the code, don't just judge it by the name >> of the package (which is just a historic incident). >>=20 >> It is valuable to go past the historic after significant time has passe= d as it easily leads >> to confusion or obfuscation. >>=20 >> May I suggest that the generic framework uses a name which in different= that using >> the old ispell name. And within that framowork, one could call ispell, = aspell or whatever, >> so there is no longer a conflict of understanding between ispell the fr= amework and ispell >> the program. >We are not going to change the names, sorry. Too many Emacs users are >used to these names. Then it would be good to have the program ispell deprecated and letting as= pell take over, following the Gnu Project Plan. >> > > Had tried lookinf for the self documentation for ispell-program-nam= e, but could not=20 >> > > access anything. >>=20 >> > "C-h v ispell-program-name RET" would have shown its documentation. >>=20 >> There are no matches for ispell-program-name if you try to do C-h v isp= ell-program-name >There will be once you invoke the first ispell-* command. Let's try to avoid such requirement and have the ability to access that in= formation without having to call other ispell commands first.=C2=A0 There could be i= spell-mode, once a user activates it, the documentation for all ispell functionality would = be available. >> > In any case, since Emacs already looks for known spell-checkers, and >> > already prefers aspell, my conclusion from the fact that it didn't >> > work for you is that you have some unusual setup, which should be >> > quite rare nowadays. The defaults are set such that the user will not >> > need to know about this variable. >>=20 >> There has been a misunderstanding that aspell was not working. It was= =20 >> working but my impression was that using ispell on emacs was using >> ispell the program. >>=20 >> I am convinced that the user should know about the variable. It is an i= mportant >> variable and users should know what spell checker is being used. >Then I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree on that. Or be able to get to know about it from emacs self documentation and from = manual. I frequently try to get information from emacs.=C2=A0 Emacs has too many h= idden things. The added benefit would be that people would know about the standalone pro= gram. Or do people not really use spell checker in emacs much? >> > IOW, spelling with aspell in Emacs should work as long as invoking >> > aspell from the shell prompt works. If it doesn't work to invoke >> > aspell from the shell prompt, then you should first correct your >> > system's configuration so that it does. >>=20 >> Correct, but it is hard to understand what spelling program is being us= ed. >You can always ask. Like here: you asked and got the answer. Yes, but do you really wanted users to always have to ask.=C2=A0 And do us= ers really want to have to ask to know.=C2=A0 Personally, I want to get on with my wo= rk, without wasting time asking about this and that.=C2=A0 Would also avoid the frustr= ation of people responding to tho same question over and over again.=C2=A0 From operationa= l point of view, when a question is being asked too frequently, it is indication of s= ome deficit. >> Gnu packages should work well together. The Gnu Aspell manual says that= =20 >> Aspell is a Free and Open Source spell checker designed to eventually r= eplace >> Ispell.This creates confusion and emacs should stop using ispell by nam= e, >> except when it is actually using the ispell checker. >You are again sticking to the name. The name is not important: I'm >quite sure Emacs was using aspell on your system (if it is installed), Good. I wanted to use aspell.=C2=A0 Am not sticking with the name, but it = is time for gnu to deprecate the ispell program in favour of aspell.=C2=A0 It would then b= e much easier for emacs users to to consider ispell in emacs as the general framework for or= thographic correction. ------=_NextPart_001_60c8fd7d_7e3_466a2bed Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: henri-biard@francemel.fr
Subject: Re: bug#49039: Aspell in Emacs
Date: 15/06/2021 20:12:22 Europe/Paris
Cc: 49039@debbugs.gnu.org

>> From: henri-biard@francemel.fr
>> Cc: 49039@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Tue, 15 Jun 2021 20:03:53 +0200 (CEST)
>>
>> > > It looks to me that it is basically a hack of ispell, l= ikely the result that it was easier
>> > > and quicker for the developer to do it that way. Correc= t me if I am wrong.
>>
>> > You are wrong. Please read the code, don't just judge it by = the name
>> of the package (which is just a historic incident).
>>
>> It is valuable to go past the historic after significant time has= passed as it easily leads
>> to confusion or obfuscation.
>>
>> May I suggest that the generic framework uses a name which in dif= ferent that using
>> the old ispell name. And within that framowork, one could call is= pell, aspell or whatever,
>> so there is no longer a conflict of understanding between ispell = the framework and ispell
>> the program.

>We are not going to change the names, sorry. Too many Emacs users are=
>used to these names.

Then it would be good to have the program ispell depre= cated and letting aspell
take over, following the Gnu Project Pla= n.

>> > > Had tried lookinf for the self documentation for ispell= -program-name, but could not
>> > > access anything.
>>
>> > "C-h v ispell-program-name RET" would have shown i= ts documentation.
>>
>> There are no matches for ispell-program-name if you try to do C-h= v ispell-program-name

>There will be once you invoke the first ispell-* command.

Let's try to avoid such requirement and have the abili= ty to access that information
without having to call other ispell= commands first.=C2=A0 There could be ispell-mode, once
a user ac= tivates it, the documentation for all ispell functionality would be availab= le.

>> > In any case, since Emacs already looks for known spell-check= ers, and
>> > already prefers aspell, my conclusion from the fact that it = didn't
>> > work for you is that you have some unusual setup, which shou= ld be
>> > quite rare nowadays. The defaults are set such that the user= will not
>> > need to know about this variable.
>>
>> There has been a misunderstanding that aspell was not working. I= t was
>> working but my impression was that using ispell on emacs was usin= g
>> ispell the program.
>>
>> I am convinced that the user should know about the variable. It = is an important
>> variable and users should know what spell checker is being used.<= br>
>Then I'm sorry, but we will have to agree to disagree on that.

Or be able to get to know about it from emacs self doc= umentation and from manual.
I frequently try to get information f= rom emacs.=C2=A0 Emacs has too many hidden things.

The added benefit would be that people would know about the standalone pro= gram.
Or do people not really use spell checker in emacs much?

>> > IOW, spelling with aspell in Emacs should work as long as in= voking
>> > aspell from the shell prompt works. If it doesn't work to in= voke
>> > aspell from the shell prompt, then you should first correct = your
>> > system's configuration so that it does.
>>
>> Correct, but it is hard to understand what spelling program is be= ing used.

>You can always ask. Like here: you asked and got the answer.

Yes, but do you really wanted users to always have to = ask.=C2=A0 And do users really
want to have to ask to know.=C2=A0= Personally, I want to get on with my work, without
wasting time = asking about this and that.=C2=A0 Would also avoid the frustration of peopl= e
responding to tho same question over and over again.=C2=A0 From= operational point of
view, when a question is being asked too fr= equently, it is indication of some deficit.

>> Gnu packages should work well together. The Gnu Aspell manual sa= ys that
>> Aspell is a Free and Open Source spell checker designed to eventu= ally replace
>> Ispell.This creates confusion and emacs should stop using ispell = by name,
>> except when it is actually using the ispell checker.

>You are again sticking to the name. The name is not important: I'm
>quite sure Emacs was using aspell on your system (if it is installed),=

Good. I wanted to use aspell.=C2=A0 Am not sticki= ng with the name, but it is time for gnu
to deprecate the ispell = program in favour of aspell.=C2=A0 It would then be much easier for
emacs users to to consider ispell in emacs as the general framework for= orthographic
correction.



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