From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Lennart Borgman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:05:41 +0100 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Lennart Borgman , 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235820245 28917 80.91.229.12 (28 Feb 2009 11:24:05 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:24:05 +0000 (UTC) Cc: xah@xahlee.org, rms@gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 28 12:25:21 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1LdNJn-0003wA-V2 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 12:25:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:46587 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdNIS-0005Vc-N5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:56 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdNIF-0005Rl-A2 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:43 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1LdNID-0005RI-HM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=52088 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1LdNID-0005R2-2R for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:41 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:37483) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1LdNIC-0005nr-JH for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:40 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SBNc8f022814; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:23:38 -0800 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n1SBA6Iq017841; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:10:06 -0800 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: Lennart Borgman Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:10:06 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 2473 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 2473-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B2473.123581914516914 (code B ref 2473); Sat, 28 Feb 2009 11:10:06 +0000 Original-Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 28 Feb 2009 11:05:45 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from an-out-0708.google.com (an-out-0708.google.com [209.85.132.241]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1SB5gDx016901 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:43 -0800 Original-Received: by an-out-0708.google.com with SMTP id b38so1069404ana.31 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:41 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:mime-version:received:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=fHPcqljOsxtpXO0USc4duhZ65mlXWPWAO3Av85ujjD8=; b=fD+ahptYFV1sXiZb3TJo6aQbCySSWxMYzOACwGCE8X4fc9aRaqusawqm0C8REljEUW WAO89rXPNbBLNML9yyaGz2TidP4IbbKvM/CC8NdZmSn1zralffTPa1ihBmWn0ixu9WFe w6rDGO97ZiBHZbh466V+EByIQ6R4gZkRO01TA= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; b=i1c4RJs3Cga7Eq/Vwhh0diU3/TawOqAOkkxq3WYZ7cFclw2V0cP9cL5VOlmAiHL466 rMDzcwmkC/choAnZChzhSkXrBbpukzLNRhNv8FKWoLRLxtCRPmBXYRag8HB0nb6+WvPj wqWbFR91q1HnDxFCPNVlo724ZrkmuWcRnAjaA= Original-Received: by 10.220.95.83 with SMTP id c19mr1267172vcn.88.1235819141660; Sat, 28 Feb 2009 03:05:41 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Sat, 28 Feb 2009 06:23:42 -0500 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:25837 Archived-At: On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 11:54 AM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: >> From: Stefan Monnier >> Cc: 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com, =C2=A0Eli Zaretskii ,= =C2=A0xah@xahlee.org >> Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:34:21 -0500 >> >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 I see a 3rd way: make the buffer present an expandable l= ist of modes, >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 starting with just 2 items: the current major modes and = "minor modes", >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 e.g. similar to what we do in Speedbar, or maybe in Outl= ine Mode >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 (under "Hide Sublevels"). =C2=A0In ASCII art: >> >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Major Mode: RMAIL Mode >> > =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 + Minor Modes >> >> > Using hiding is a good idea -- thanks. >> >> > I think that partcular way would be inconvenient. =C2=A0Specifically, = it >> > would be a hassle to initially hide the major mode documentation. >> > That is what users most often want to see; making them type a command >> > to expose it would be a gratuitous hassle. >> >> > So I suggest putting the partly-hidden minor mode list first, >> > followed by the totally visible major mode documentation. > > For the record: I don't mind whether the major mode is first or last, > nor whether it is Initially shown expanded or collapsed. > >> I don't think the difference with what we have now is worth >> the trouble. > > The difference is twofold, IMO: > > =C2=A0. it presents a UI that's familiar to most users > =C2=A0. it makes it easy to show initially a very short text without > =C2=A0 =C2=A0hampering user's ability to get to the information she needs= most And it is very easy to implement ... > If that's not worth the trouble, then what is? > > (In case it wasn't clear, I wasn't suggesting that we make this change > before Emacs 23.1 is released.) > > > > >