From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Jeff B Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#49050: 26.1; The INSANITY of setting a default font size in EMACS and saving it for future instances. Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:48:52 -0400 Message-ID: References: <83wnqv2e7g.fsf@gnu.org> <83v96d26x5.fsf@gnu.org> <83r1h123wd.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="3993"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux i686; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.11.0 Cc: 49050@debbugs.gnu.org To: Christopher Dimech , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Jun 17 21:44:12 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvv-0000s8-AF for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 21:44:11 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35640 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvu-0007Ds-98 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:44:10 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:37128) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvn-0007BM-IW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:44:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:43641) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvn-0008T4-4W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:44:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvn-0004Tu-2p for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:44:03 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Jeff B Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:44:03 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 49050 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 49050-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B49050.162395902517151 (code B ref 49050); Thu, 17 Jun 2021 19:44:03 +0000 Original-Received: (at 49050) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 Jun 2021 19:43:45 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55180 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltxvQ-0004SS-BG for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:43:44 -0400 Original-Received: from smtprelay0238.b.hostedemail.com ([64.98.42.238]:53978 helo=smtprelay.b.hostedemail.com) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ltx4Q-00031M-BN for 49050@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 14:48:54 -0400 Original-Received: from omf05.b.hostedemail.com (10.5.19.248.rfc1918.com [10.5.19.248]) by smtprelay05.b.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id B85C510049A6A; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 18:48:53 +0000 (UTC) Original-Received: from [HIDDEN] (Authenticated sender: jeff_b.athome@clowderhouse.net) by omf05.b.hostedemail.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id 2F097180260AE; Thu, 17 Jun 2021 18:48:53 +0000 (UTC) In-Reply-To: Content-Language: en-US X-Stat-Signature: 8r7ac7d5ibzchd6m4bty36gmbrft5fdx X-Rspamd-Server: rspamout02 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2F097180260AE X-Session-Marker: 6A6566665F622E6174686F6D6540636C6F77646572686F7573652E6E6574 X-Session-ID: U2FsdGVkX18aRk2BXLfY3y6m4pLu15dklhc60swdLeg= X-HE-Tag: 1623955733-63979 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 17 Jun 2021 15:43:39 -0400 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:208674 Archived-At: My response is down below at the end. >>>> Such changes in the defaults will need to be requested by much more >>>> than a single individual, for them to be considered seriously. >> Why me? I have enough on my plate already, and starting a discussion >> needs neither my consent nor my help. > On 6/17/21 10:13 AM, Christopher Dimech wrote: > > So me starting a discussion does not require your consent nor your help. > I shall take you up on that and start discussing. > > The suggestion was mainly driven by the previous comment that my requests are not > considered seriously. This is not always a healthy solution to inactivity. > >> The decision to add an "Accessibility" toggle, which is off by >> default, is a much easier one, and given that someone writes the code, >> should be a no-brainer to install. No discussion is needed for that. > Let's do the no-brainer and see how that goes. An accessibility option is good, > but need an easy way to enable it after installing emacs. I suggest an > "Initial Option" such as "emacs -A", together with an elisp command > "(accessibility 1)". > > Jeff, what do you think about this? Would it be a good 70th birthday present? > > Felicitations > Christopher Since you ask I will answer. • I would NOT use an Initial Option such as "emacs -A" because that    means that you would have had to read the man page to know that    -the A option is there.  The Emacs 26.1 man page is already 473    lines long.  If someone is having a hard time seeing to begin with    then expecting them to read their way through all that to look for    something they don't know is there is not exactly    accessibility-friendly. • Instead I would add an accessibility item either as an item to the    Options menu or, better still, add it as a separate item to the menu    bar.  That would make it easy to stumble upon.  :-) • Which brings me to another point.  I accept that I probably have    some weirdness in my environment which causes Save Options to    fail, so solving that problem is probably on me.  BUT since saving    options has never worked for me I am particularly sensitive to the    issue of saving options.    As I understand it (because it has never worked for me) to save    options chosen one not only has to make changes somewhere under    the Options item but then one has to re-enter the Options menu and    explicitly save the changes.  If it were up to me I'd reorganize that    so that each Options menu item had Cancel, Apply and Save buttons    so that you can save right then and there.    HOWEVER I recognize that would be a major refactoring of the code    (I have been a hard-core programmer all of my professional life!)    which would take a lot of work so it probably won't happen.  BUT, as    I said, if it were up to me I'd do it. • Responding to a comment in an earlier eMail, YES, the default font    size IS TOO SMALL to be accessibility-friendly.  It is far easier for    a person who has good vision to make the text smaller than it is for    a vision-impaired person to make the text bigger. I know all about wanting to cram more lines and columns of code into a frame.  I used to have 20/20 vision and made the characters as small as possible so I could have more lines of code visible on my screen at any one time.  Then I got older and, as happens to many people, I lost my ability to focus rather suddenly at about 45 years of age. Assuming that you do make it to "older", then you may also discover, personally, how important accessibility features really are.  So I urge you to get them in place BEFORE you need them, and in the meantime making it easier for all of the people who already have sight impairment. Thank you, Jeff Barry Old Fart and Curmudgeon-In-Training PS: Fix the EMACS documentation problem with jargon too!