From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#30530: 26.0; Emacs manual: mention (1) user-reserved keys, (2) users can bind any keys Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 07:17:14 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: References: <<<> <83lgfi4qw2.fsf@gnu.org>> <529ae5d2-b5e8-40d1-aaa6-87a76003b8bc@default> <83h8q62sgd.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<<87zi3y13jf.fsf@nicolasgoaziou.fr>>>> <<<<83d10nyf4y.fsf@gnu.org>>>> <<<92c8fd97-8e96-4e2b-8706-f5ca97869912@default>>> <<<831sh3y51x.fsf@gnu.org>>> <> <<83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1520003781 15636 195.159.176.226 (2 Mar 2018 15:16:21 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:16:21 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 30530@debbugs.gnu.org, mail@nicolasgoaziou.fr To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Mar 02 16:16:16 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1ermPv-0003Mt-KA for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:17:17 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0003.oracle.com (abhmp0003.oracle.com [141.146.116.9]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w22FHFtc008325; Fri, 2 Mar 2018 15:17:16 GMT In-Reply-To: <<83woyvvy8g.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4654.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=8820 signatures=668682 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1711220000 definitions=main-1803020180 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 208.118.235.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:143842 Archived-At: > > > > The Emacs doc makes clear that these keys are reserved for users. > > > > > > Being reserved means that users can bind them. > > > > You keep repeating that, but it has never been in question. >=20 > You are questioning that, by insisting that no document can > suggest binding those keys. Not at all. It is fine for the Emacs and Elisp manuals to point out that users can bind these keys and that the keys are reserved for them. That's in fact the point of this bug report: to make that message even more clear than it has been, by bringing it to the attention of readers of the Emacs manual. It is a message not just for library writers (which is why it is in the Elisp manual). It is a message for end users - it's about keys reserved for _them_ (so it belongs also in the Emacs manual). Same goes for blogs and other documents. Same also for the doc of a library. Reminding users that these keys are reserved for their use - however they might want to bind them - is _always_ a good thing. That's not the same thing as the doc of a library that most Emacs users use, and that is often the gateway to starting to use Emacs, telling users that they should bind these keys _for that library_, for best results. That is tantamount to the Emacs manual or tutorial telling users that these keys are reserved for users (good) BUT that Emacs recommends that they bind some of them to Org commands (bad). That's misleading, confusing, and not helpful, IMO. And there's no need for it. It is enough for any doc, including the Org doc, to simply remind users that they can bind any of these keys without worry that some library will change them. We should not start Emacs users off with a suggestion that they bind such keys for Org (or anything else). Or if we really think (I don't) that that's the way to start using Emacs then Org should bind those keys by default. In that case, there would be no pretense of reserving them. (Users could still, of course, bind them.) Either the keys are reserved for users or they are not. IMHO, the _single_ message about these keys from Emacs to users (especially new users) should be the message that these keys are reserved for their use. End of story. That message should not be diluted and confused by a second message that for best results you are nevertheless encouraged to bind many such keys to Org commands.