From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Gregory Heytings Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:10:45 +0000 Message-ID: References: <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <87eef9qg81.fsf@gnus.org> <1869622e162377be79e9@heytings.org> <83bladw0dh.fsf@gnu.org> <87a6pxqdeg.fsf@gnus.org> <875z0lqcj4.fsf@gnus.org> <1869622e1602a39e56a6@heytings.org> <83a6pwumt1.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=us-ascii Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="30854"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 1305@debbugs.gnu.org, stefan@marxist.se, jasonspiro4@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun Apr 18 13:11:15 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5Kc-0007uQ-N8 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 13:11:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:46078 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5Kb-0001wt-Q8 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:11:13 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:56924) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5KQ-0001uS-Ku for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:11:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:34017) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5KQ-0001mM-Dk for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:11:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5KQ-0003Dh-8j for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:11:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Gregory Heytings Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:11:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 1305 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 1305-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B1305.161874424912356 (code B ref 1305); Sun, 18 Apr 2021 11:11:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Apr 2021 11:10:49 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45563 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5KC-0003DE-RA for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:10:49 -0400 Original-Received: from heytings.org ([95.142.160.155]:43008) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lY5KA-0003D5-TZ for 1305@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 18 Apr 2021 07:10:47 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=heytings.org; s=20210101; t=1618744245; bh=eh1Px1TcRLCjXe7PxkVG0Av6zi0DQHwtLUAvaVXOJCs=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References:From; b=ip2kfxHyykJiqKVfyevKKGWhNeg+F+ADlT5YxaADuL1tbk6BLyWBDrmmZGH/kG9LB fL8feF0ZNDXJYAW7w0BOSp38xXC84LJ7joxFWEqTAgQVipCL4bXC8LSiXOlw0GOGXa zcUBwR2yYCi9mQSk7cH0aEY6DxZzrGH1Ubssjp6flbI0oOpCJHBnsti4aA4PhNq140 wWXkBed5TBQa/L4Dj/vmqRLtrKPn/3MggI4lR+PyJg01i1K3bOKMtvlQxz5M9sSq9G dQznp2Rqz81PiM0wMZzy8KoyAmOuVmXhe7Ual0x8b+ouPBn0x/wiSYOp+337XWVco4 hlp5XiJTagyDQ== In-Reply-To: <83a6pwumt1.fsf@gnu.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:204320 Archived-At: > > Emacs beeps a lot if you do things that make it beep. Like try to go > where no one has gone before. > > By contrast, other apps beep when they see fit. A MUA plays sounds when > a new email arrives; the desktop beeps when it has some notification > that it thinks you must see and act upon, etc. etc. > > I don't see how Emacs is the odd one out here. > It just feels awkward by today's standards. Emacs beeps when there is in fact no good reason to beep: whenever you type C-g, when isearch doesn't find a match, when you press C-p at BOB or C-n at EOB, when you press C-v or M-v too much (which can in fact be, for a short enough buffer: whenever you type C-v or M-v), when you press a self-inserting key in a read-only buffer, and so forth. There is no good reason to beep, because (1) the echo area already contains an explanation about what happened, and (2) the error is not important enough to call the user's attention, nothing serious can happen if the user doesn't see it. In such cases flashing the echo area would be more than enough. By contrast, Emacs doesn't beep when there would perhaps be a good reason to beep, for example when yes-or-no-p/y-or-n-p are called. > > And we are bikeshedding again: the opinions are clearly divided, and > Emacs lets each one of us customize this feature as they see fit. So > why is arguing about the default so important, when there's clearly no > consensus? > We are discussing what a better default could be; in another thread the discussion is about a better default for the 'match' face. Is discussing the default UX useless because everyone can customize everything?