From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#17362: 24.4.50; inconsistent key notation: `ESC' vs `' Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 11:12:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <<47b1a857-a5d6-4e5a-b8f6-f96f9e201c89@default>> <> <> <<83fvkwmagn.fsf@gnu.org>> <<4294927c-08b3-4c65-83e4-1582e8d0d859@default>> <<838uqom7lm.fsf@gnu.org>> <> <<8361lsm3b6.fsf@gnu.org>> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1398795213 11020 80.91.229.3 (29 Apr 2014 18:13:33 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:13:33 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 17362@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii , Drew Adams Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 29 20:13:25 2014 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWx-00031c-Kd for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 20:13:23 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:51669 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWw-0002cH-Qk for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:22 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:60512) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWl-0002KJ-JW for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:20 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWc-0005aO-Rc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:11 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:56231) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWc-0005aK-OZ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCWc-0004qF-8k for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:13:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:13:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 17362 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 17362-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B17362.139879515418564 (code B ref 17362); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:13:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 17362) by debbugs.gnu.org; 29 Apr 2014 18:12:34 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45349 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCW9-0004pL-EL for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:12:33 -0400 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:26082) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1WfCW6-0004oz-Ns for 17362@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 14:12:31 -0400 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.3.2) with ESMTP id s3TICOFK021311 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:12:24 GMT Original-Received: from aserz7021.oracle.com (aserz7021.oracle.com [141.146.126.230]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s3TICNgO005467 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:12:23 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0008.oracle.com (abhmp0008.oracle.com [141.146.116.14]) by aserz7021.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id s3TICN5m015750; Tue, 29 Apr 2014 18:12:23 GMT In-Reply-To: <<8361lsm3b6.fsf@gnu.org>> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.8 (707110) [OL 12.0.6691.5000 (x86)] X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:88449 Archived-At: > I'm not talking about help, I'm only talking about the manual. The > bug report was about inconsistencies in the manual. At least that's > how I perceived it, and that's the only issue I set out to fix. Yes, thank you for that. > > > > Seems like that would be a big change from the past and a change > > > > from how Emacs itself communicates with users. AFAIK, Emacs > > > > writes for the Delete key etc. The rule for function > > > > keys and pseudo function keys has always been to use lowercase > > > > (in angle brackets), no? > > > > > > Yes, because they are symbols. I did nothing about symbols, of > > > course. > > > > What does that mean? >=20 > Which part is unclear? Apparently you agree that the rule for function keys is lowercase. Yet you leave some of them capitalized or uppercase? And the reason is because those that you make lowercase are symbols? > > Emacs writes . Why write ? Emacs writes > > . Why write Delete or ? >=20 > See the guidelines I used to decide on names and capitalization, I > tried to explain why I choose this or that convention. The convention used should be the one that Emacs itself uses to write key sequences. (And yes, this discussion is outside this bug report. I did not ask in the report that you fix all key-sequence inconsistencies in the manual. But that's what the current discussion is about. That and the inconsistencies between the notations in the manual and the notation in the Emacs UI. > > My point is that the manual should write key sequences the same way > > Emacs writes them interactively, e.g., in help output. It does not > > refer to a key or a Backspace key or a , , > > Control, or Ctrl key. Emacs help writes and C- in key > > sequences. >=20 > If that's the issue, then (a) it was nowhere clear from your original > bug report, and (b) I will have nothing to do with it, sorry. I don't > care enough about it to work on that. 1. Yes, it is outside this bug report. 2. Too bad you are not interested in it, but so be it. > I only fixed inconsistencies in the manual, without any relation to > what Emacs says in help mode. You fixed only some inconsistencies in the manual, but that is OK for this bug report. It is inconsistent to use sometimes and other times, and , and , and so on. But yes, beyond inconsistencies within the manual, the larger issue is to get the manual in sync with the rest of Emacs, so there it uses the same, single, key-sequence notation. And yes, that is outside this bug report. I am OK with (what I guess is) what you have fixed for this bug report. > > Do you even agree that key sequences should be written the same way > > in the manual as in the rest of Emacs? Do agree that the manual, > > like the rest of Emacs, should write and not C-, > > and not C-? >=20 > Perhaps it could be nice (although it never bothered me), but I think > it's close to impossible now, due to various historical reasons. In > any case, I'm not going to do anything about this, someone else will > have to step forward. I found your complaint about inconsistencies in > the manual justified, and I fixed that; my job here is now done. Thank you for that.