From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#74488: Why not modernize Emacs Date: Mon, 25 Nov 2024 17:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Message-ID: References: <9039ab2e-e781-4d80-8aa0-f39e690f076a@me.com> <86ttbymo5e.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Raj Divecha Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="7506"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 74488@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 25 18:59:17 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1tFdMj-0001qT-47 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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charset=utf-8; format=flowed I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with my bread & but= ter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly work on C/C++/Python,= validating features of various ICs that my company manufactures and I kno= w if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but at the end of the da= y my bread & butter job takes priority over everything else. Just out of c= uriosity, what will it take to get this done? Is there a document I can re= view and get a feel for the amount of work? And approximately, how many en= gineers do you think are needed to work on this and the different expertis= e required? LISP is kind of dead and the users might need Python to custom= ize their interface, thus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be = supported simultaneously. On Nov 22, 2024, at 11:59 PM, Eli Zaretskii wrote: severity 74488 wishlist thanks Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23= :27:09 +0000 (UTC) From: Raj Divecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the S= wiss army knife of text editors" Hi, I am an occas= ional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable editor. In fact, mos= t modern editors provide similar features, just that the learning curve fo= r them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the box. Thus, I am wo= ndering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to provide a different i= nterface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example, while I can use Em= acs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my developer IDE. I w= ant some feature that will help me easily install a project explorer like = extension. The project explorer could help create workspaces, project, hel= p me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. On the same lines, I= would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Emacs already supports= all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don't feel like openin= g it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out with a simpler inter= face (and allow one to switch to an advance interface when needed) and thr= ow the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing something? Thanks,= Raj The simple answer to your questions is "because no one has yet propos= ed code changes to implement those features." Emacs is developed by a loos= ely-coupled group of volunteers, each one of whom contributes changes in t= he areas that are of interest to him/her and match their domains of expert= ise. We acknowledge the need and the advantages of having the advanced IDE= -related features work out of the box, but have no way of assigning someon= e to the job of actually doing that non-trivial job. It is non-trivial bec= ause different users of Emacs have different interests and needs (e.g., de= velop in vastly different programming languages), and setting up the tools= we have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task. In addit= ion, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers and service= s, so it is much more difficult for us to provide OOTB configuration for f= eatures that rely on external programs and servers. But if and when someon= e comes with code that does one of these jobs, we embrace that very quickl= y. Examples include Tree-Sitter based major modes, LSP support via Eglot, = etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome to contribute additional features that w= ill make Emacs a better IDE, and ease the learning curve for newcomers. Th= ank you for your interest in Emacs. --Apple-Webmail-42--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary=Apple-Webmail-86--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a --Apple-Webmail-86--dba5d134-b408-4a2d-a6ec-4b7f79f80c5a Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8;
I wish I could contribute but unfortunately I am stuck with= my bread & butter job. I am a seasoned systems engineer and mostly wo= rk on C/C++/Python, validating features of various ICs that my company man= ufactures and I know if I want I can work on this non-trivial change but a= t the end of the day my bread & butter job takes priority over everyth= ing else.

Just out of curiosity, what will it= take to get this done? Is there a document I can review and get a feel fo= r the amount of work? And approximately, how many engineers do you think a= re needed to work on this and the different expertise required? LISP is ki= nd of dead and the users might need Python to customize their interface, t= hus, I believe both LISP and Python will have to be supported simultaneous= ly.


= On Nov 22, 2024, at 11:59 PM, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:


severity 74488 wishlis= t
thanks

<= div>Date: Fri, 22 Nov 2024 23:27:09 +0000 (UTC)
From: Raj D= ivecha via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs,
the Swiss army knife = of text editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>

Hi, I am an occasional Emacs user. I know that Emacs is a very capable e= ditor. In fact, most modern editors provide similar features, just that th= e learning curve for them is close to nothing. They simply work out of the= box. Thus, I am wondering, why not Emacs? How difficult would it be to pr= ovide a different interface, a simpler one yet fully capable? For example,= while I can use Emacs for simple text editing, I still can't use it as my= developer IDE. I want some feature that will help me easily install a pro= ject explorer like extension. The project explorer could help create works= paces, project, help me navigate them with ease etc. Think MS's VS Code. O= n the same lines, I would like a LaTeX window with its own extensions. Ema= cs already supports all this but the learning curve is so steep that I don= 't feel like opening it anymore! Thus wondering why can't Emacs come out w= ith a simpler interface (and allow one to switch to an advance interface w= hen needed) and throw the learning curve out the window? -OR- Am I missing= something? Thanks, Raj

The simp= le answer to your questions is "because no one has yet
propo= sed code changes to implement those features."

Emacs is developed by a loosely-coupled group of volunteers, each one
of whom contributes changes in the areas that are of interest = to
him/her and match their domains of expertise. We acknowl= edge the need
and the advantages of having the advanced IDE-= related features work
out of the box, but have no way of ass= igning someone to the job of
actually doing that non-trivial= job. It is non-trivial because
different users of Emacs ha= ve different interests and needs (e.g.,
develop in vastly di= fferent programming languages), and setting up the
tools we = have to fit the needs of a particular user is a complex task.
In addition, unlike VS Code, we don't want to promote non-free servers
and services, so it is much more difficult for us to provide = OOTB
configuration for features that rely on external progra= ms and servers.

But if and when someone comes= with code that does one of these jobs,
we embrace that very= quickly. Examples include Tree-Sitter based
major modes, L= SP support via Eglot, etc. Thus, volunteers are welcome
to = contribute additional features that will make Emacs a better IDE,
and ease the learning curve for newcomers.

<= div>Thank you for your interest in Emacs.



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