bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Stefan Kangas]

Severity: wishlist

I don't think non-standard URLs like these are used much, and they're
probably not very useful.  They're more likely to cause confusion.

    (url-retrieve-synchronously "info:url#Retrieving URLs")
    (url-retrieve-synchronously "man:cat")

I suggest support for such URLs is obsoleted, and that they are removed
from (info "(url) Supported URL Types").


In GNU Emacs 29.0.50 (build 3, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version
 3.24.24, cairo version 1.16.0) of 2022-09-24 built on joffe
Repository revision: 351d4dce21eaad30bb8b8a7d6a64463164f3e0bc
Repository branch: master
Windowing system distributor 'The X.Org Foundation', version 11.0.12011000
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bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 24 Sep 2022 19:05:13 -0400
> 
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> I don't think non-standard URLs like these are used much, and they're
> probably not very useful.  They're more likely to cause confusion.

How do you know all these things?  Do you have any data to support
those opinions?

>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "info:url#Retrieving URLs")
>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "man:cat")
> 
> I suggest support for such URLs is obsoleted, and that they are removed
> from (info "(url) Supported URL Types").

I don't see why we should.  Do they require any significant
maintenance effort to keep them?

Let's not obsolete/remove features just because we don't know who'd
need them.  Support for many features, some of them perhaps obscure to
many, is one of important traits of Emacs, so let's try keeping that
where it costs us little to do so.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> [2022-09-25 02:07]:
> Severity: wishlist
> 
> I don't think non-standard URLs like these are used much, and they're
> probably not very useful.  They're more likely to cause confusion.
> 
>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "info:url#Retrieving URLs")
>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "man:cat")
> 
> I suggest support for such URLs is obsoleted, and that they are removed
> from (info "(url) Supported URL Types").

Please don't. There are many different URLs and you can't know how
users have implemented it. Yes, I agree they are less known, less
used, nevertheless it makes no sense to obsolete it.

Hyperlinking is major computing feature since Doug Engelbart, and the
fact that we have not implement it sufficiently does not mean it shall
be obsoleted.

-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Augusto Stoffel]

On Sat, 24 Sep 2022 at 19:05, Stefan Kangas wrote:

> Severity: wishlist
>
> I don't think non-standard URLs like these are used much, and they're
> probably not very useful.  They're more likely to cause confusion.
>
>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "info:url#Retrieving URLs")
>     (url-retrieve-synchronously "man:cat")

I can imagine many uses for this.  For instance, a completion table
could provide some kind of "further info" property so you can preview
the documentation of an item mid-completion.  Also, and eldoc source
could provide a "further info" hyperlink pointing to the info or man
page.  (This is mostly speculation, of course.)

If I were to retire something, it would be the (file)node syntax for
info pages.

(My digestif TeX language server provides links to the documentation of
various packages, typically PDF files.  It checks if the PDF exists
locally and gives a file:// link, otherwise a https:// link to CTAN.
But it would be much better to just provide a “texinfo:” link and let
the editor decide how to display that.  Of course I don't do this
because no editor would support it OOTB, but I think the concept makes
sense.)

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Augusto Stoffel]

On Sun, 25 Sep 2022 at 16:01, Augusto Stoffel wrote:

> But it would be much better to just provide a “texinfo:” link and let

I meant “texdoc:” here (and the texdoc command would provide a way to
handle those hyperlinks.)

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@gmail.com> writes:

> I can imagine many uses for this.  For instance, a completion table
> could provide some kind of "further info" property so you can preview
> the documentation of an item mid-completion.

Why on Earth would you use URL syntax for something like that?  Just add
the "further info" property and link that up with a closure from a text
property or whatever

I'm all for retiring the info: and man: schemes (since they are 100%
useless), but don't really see the need to do so piecemeal -- when Emacs
grows a new URL library that functions better than the current one,
it'll only support http(s) and file, so all this junk will disappear in
one fell swoop.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>, 58049@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Sun, 25 Sep 2022 16:30:19 +0200
> 
> when Emacs grows a new URL library that functions better than the
> current one, it'll only support http(s) and file

You mean, no mailto:, no imap:, no irc:, no news:, no pop:, no rsync:,
etc.?  Do we really want to drop support for all those schemes?

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> You mean, no mailto:, no imap:, no irc:, no news:, no pop:, no rsync:,
> etc.?  Do we really want to drop support for all those schemes?

From the new URL library?  Definitely -- the current URL library
hand-waves at handling some of those, but doesn't really, so there's
not much to drop.

(But other parts of Emacs handle mailto: just fine, and that'll continue
to work.)

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I'm all for retiring the info: and man: schemes (since they are 100%
> useless), but don't really see the need to do so piecemeal -- when Emacs
> grows a new URL library that functions better than the current one,
> it'll only support http(s) and file, so all this junk will disappear in
> one fell swoop.

I think I agree.  Eli also has a point when he says that we might as
well just leave the support in.

How about saying in the URL manual that the info: and man: schemes as
deprecated, so people at least won't try to use them in new code?  That
is a small change, but will also potentially make the transition to
something new and improved a tiny bit easier.  It'll also discourage
anyone from attempting to re-implement it in the new library.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> How about saying in the URL manual that the info: and man: schemes as
> deprecated, so people at least won't try to use them in new code?  That
> is a small change, but will also potentially make the transition to
> something new and improved a tiny bit easier.  It'll also discourage
> anyone from attempting to re-implement it in the new library.

I'm not sure that's really that helpful -- they're not deprecated in any
"formal" sense, and I think the likelihood of them being reimplemented
is minuscule.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> I'm not sure that's really that helpful -- they're not deprecated in any
> "formal" sense, and I think the likelihood of them being reimplemented
> is minuscule.

Fair enough.  So I guess we want to leave this alone, and I'm closing
this bug.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Jean Louis]

* Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> [2022-09-25 17:32]:
> Augusto Stoffel <arstoffel@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I can imagine many uses for this.  For instance, a completion table
> > could provide some kind of "further info" property so you can preview
> > the documentation of an item mid-completion.
> 
> Why on Earth would you use URL syntax for something like that?  Just add
> the "further info" property and link that up with a closure from a text
> property or whatever
> 
> I'm all for retiring the info: and man: schemes (since they are 100%
> useless), but don't really see the need to do so piecemeal -- when Emacs
> grows a new URL library that functions better than the current one,
> it'll only support http(s) and file, so all this junk will disappear in
> one fell swoop.

Whatever you wish to remove, maybe I misunderstood it, but please do
not remove functionality from goto-address-mode that I can make any
kinds of links in Emacs buffers:

man:man is link here. I can open it as C-c RET and such links may be
automatically generated in my hyperlinking system, including many
other links.

URL schemes are standard, you do not just delete it because you do not
know how why on Earth would somebody use it.


Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
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bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Stefan Kangas]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> URL schemes are standard, you do not just delete it because you do not
> know how why on Earth would somebody use it.

This bug is already closed, but for the record these URI schemes are not
standard.

bug#58049: 29.0.50; Obsolete url schemes "info" and "man"

[Jean Louis]

* Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> [2022-09-27 21:07]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > URL schemes are standard, you do not just delete it because you do not
> > know how why on Earth would somebody use it.
> 
> This bug is already closed, but for the record these URI schemes are not
> standard.

If not standard, not. 👀
-- 
Jean

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https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/