bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Stefan Kangas]

Severity: wishlist

Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
having fewer but better games.

I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
pass the bar:

 - 5x5.el
 - blackbox.el
 - gomoku.el
 - pong.el
 - solitaire.el

I also ask if these games/libraries are really pulling their weight:

 - animate.el
 - handwrite.el
 - studly.el

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Visuwesh]

[திங்கள் ஜூலை 11, 2022] Stefan Kangas wrote:

> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.

[ What exactly do you mean by "better games"?  Do you mean to say that
  they should look visually interesting?  ]

> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I never properly checked out 5x5 but it looks like really interesting.
I never understood blackbox however.

Gomoku and solitaire are both standard puzzle games.  I was very pleased
to know that my childhood pastime was included in Emacs, I suggest we
don't obsolete them.  (Solitaire in particular is a very rewarding
game.)

Pong is unfortunately too choppy for me to play it.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Phil Sainty]

On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.

Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
to "games you can play"?  And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks
"a bit dated" to most people (at least by default).

I don't understand why we'd remove any working games from the games
menu.  It's not as if there are so many of them that people are lost
for choice.


-Phil

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Stefan Kangas]

Phil Sainty <psainty@orcon.net.nz> writes:

> On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
>> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
>> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
>> having fewer but better games.
>
> Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
> to "games you can play"?

I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
hidden than actively promoted.

> And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks "a bit dated" to most
> people (at least by default).

Indeed.  We can and should improve that.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 04:54:45 -0500
> 
> Phil Sainty <psainty@orcon.net.nz> writes:
> 
> > On 2022-07-12 15:06, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> >> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> >> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> >> having fewer but better games.
> >
> > Why do they need to be "an excellent promotion for Emacs" as opposed
> > to "games you can play"?
> 
> I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
> they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
> hidden than actively promoted.

Aren't you exaggerating a bit?  How can a game make Emacs look
"scruffy and antiquated"?  And how can removing some games without
adding anything in their stead make Emacs look better?

If you (or someone else) personally don't like those games, you are
welcome not to play them.  But why force your views on others in such
a blatant way?

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> I was trying to be polite, sorry.  Let me put it a bit more bluntly:
> they make Emacs look scruffy and antiquated, and should much sooner be
> hidden than actively promoted.

[...]

> Indeed.  We can and should improve that.

The last thing by which someone will judge a text editor (of all things)
is the selection of games available to play.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Drew Adams]

> Let me put it a bit more bluntly: they make Emacs
> look scruffy and antiquated, and should much
> sooner be hidden than actively promoted.

Heaven forbid that Emacs should appear scruffy
and antiquated!  We can't have folks seeing that.

Take all them longhairs out NOW, hose 'em down,
shave their heads, and disinfect 'em.  Schnell !

> > And I put it to you that most of Emacs looks
> > "a bit dated" to most people (at least by default).
> 
> Indeed.  We can and should improve that.

Some of the best people and things look "dated".
Some of the worst look up-to-date.

Emacs is a Stradivarius.  And carefully scruffy
by design.

Emacs is a rain forest, with things growing on/in
things growing on/in things growing on/in things...

You prefer a blockhouse of antiseptic concrete
cells, perhaps.  Well, you can have that too -
just customize till squeaky-clean, wash, rinse,
repeat...

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> Some of the best people and things look "dated".
> Some of the worst look up-to-date.

Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Drew Adams]

> > Some of the best people and things look "dated".
> > Some of the worst look up-to-date.
> 
> Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.

You mean, instead of going barefoot?

Is Emacs applying for a job?

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.

  > You mean, instead of going barefoot?

LOL!

I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Drew Adams]

>>> Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.
> 
>> You mean, instead of going barefoot?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
> just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

Were you dismissed as being vulgarian?

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Jean Louis]

* Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> [2022-07-13 06:20]:
> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> 
>   > > Right, but this is more a case of wearing socks to a job interview.
> 
>   > You mean, instead of going barefoot?
> 
> LOL!
> 
> I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
> just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

What happened then?


Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I once went to a job interview wearing a Bulgarian folk dance costume,
  > > just to prove I could get offered the job that way.

  > What happened then?

I was offered the job, but I decided not to take it.  After learning
more about it, I found it would not have offered a better social
environment than the dying AI lab.

This is off-topic so I will stop here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.

> I also ask if these games/libraries are really pulling their weight:
>
>  - animate.el
>  - handwrite.el
>  - studly.el

I think keeping those for amusement value is worth it.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
>> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
>> pass the bar:
>>
>>  - 5x5.el
>>  - blackbox.el
>>  - gomoku.el
>>  - pong.el
>>  - solitaire.el
>
> I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.

Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:44 -0500
> 
> Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> 
> >> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> >> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> >> pass the bar:
> >>
> >>  - 5x5.el
> >>  - blackbox.el
> >>  - gomoku.el
> >>  - pong.el
> >>  - solitaire.el
> >
> > I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> > well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> > rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.
> 
> Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
> some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?

I don't see why remove any games from there.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 17:23:00 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> 
> > Cc: 56510@debbugs.gnu.org
> > From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> > Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2022 09:04:44 -0500
> > 
> > Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
> > 
> > >> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> > >> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> > >> pass the bar:
> > >>
> > >>  - 5x5.el
> > >>  - blackbox.el
> > >>  - gomoku.el
> > >>  - pong.el
> > >>  - solitaire.el
> > >
> > > I think pong is vaguely amusing (but it needs fixing -- it doesn't work
> > > well by default since it uses a too-wide buffer).  I think removing the
> > > rest from the menu might make sense, because they sure aren't pretty.
> > 
> > Could we agree to drop "5x5", "blackbox", "gomoku" and "solitaire" (or
> > some subset thereof) from the menu?  Eli?
> 
> I don't see why remove any games from there.

Or let me turn the table and ask you: what are the criteria for the
decision?  Why these games yes and others no?

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I don't see why remove any games from there.

I guess we won't make more progress here so I'm closing the bug.
Thanks for considering my suggestions.

bug#56510: Make some games obsolete (or just remove them from the menu)

[Po Lu via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Some of the games in Emacs look a bit dated.  I put it to you that they
> are not excellent promotion for Emacs, and that we are better served by
> having fewer but better games.
>
> I suggest that we either remove some of them from the "Tools -> Games"
> menu, or obsolete them outright.  Here are the ones that I don't think
> pass the bar:
>
>  - 5x5.el
>  - blackbox.el
>  - gomoku.el
>  - pong.el
>  - solitaire.el

I especially oppose obsoleting Le Solitaire, Pong, and Blackbox.  As for
the others, I think there's no point in ever declaring an amusement
obsolete, especially since we haven't been getting any more lately.

As for the menu, removing it seems to be a no-brainer, since games are
not tools.