From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Heime via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:34:08 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <04_YeulwxttSgx-ucr-VfmWTxKH81JSzyGT-sOTCmIoygmC3J7tNUFEY6pzA1O53iwhjtDqN88gX6pkBNR7e7b_kCefsrYMoIGPKJKt99rM=@protonmail.com> Reply-To: Heime Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32516"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Eli Zaretskii , 65913@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Kangas Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 13 17:35:15 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRta-0008Bm-SV for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 17:35:14 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRtK-0005LJ-Gt; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRtJ-0005L2-HY for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:57 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRtI-0005Bw-Vs for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRtO-0005wz-7h for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:35:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:35:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169461927522833 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 15:35:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 15:34:35 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35693 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRsx-0005wD-6o for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4325.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.25]:61987) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgRsu-0005vw-Qf for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 11:34:33 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694619260; x=1694878460; bh=I68+1UfF82ASu6x7BUENEGCNqaaYeN6+67MKkM+Yt5Y=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=tEnvHUMAwwfF4lV3r83fh0H0G6BeOE6Q2HgsWQ6gZvpRHoZTzURJKamQeF665+4H1 1NWcUB4UBbjAXNk/sCeFsiB1Ijk85LhuTl329OUhG/4qS9+Cr7GPA+0pdpXC6lE5Ep b1AwaS2GsziOSRkr78/8UEZO0YMY7WqemyKbjgm4LdD/OhvWlaHY5Y1hjJ/8piPUd6 FNwd4GIgdgneGfq2DjsaXI1hzlcDecQpdSRjzW3FBYXt3a2icJvdHApxGlNSm100lw N9g7WR31omkeF0gKblEcOA9vsHgCjls9YPk90svk8j3/m9TRHczeitXUTHPMx3ttCf hog0T5dSqxNZg== In-Reply-To: Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:270319 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 3:14 AM, Stefan Kangas wrote: > Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com writes: >=20 > > Stefan, is this to say that for you it is good that there is no way > > to figure out that there is no requirement to reset buffer-read-only > > from the self documentation ? And that it is even unnecessary to > > state that the duffer is read only by going through the different > > docstrings. Such conclusions is seriously deficient with little regard > > to how much time developers waste in working with the language. >=20 >=20 > No, I just don't see why anyone would assume that you would have to mess > around with buffer-read-only, given that the manual (for example) says: >=20 > -- Macro: with-help-window buffer-or-name body... > This macro evaluates BODY like =E2=80=98with-output-to-temp-buffer= =E2=80=99 (*note > Temporary Displays::), inserting any output produced by its forms > into a buffer specified by BUFFER-OR-NAME, which can be a buffer or > the name of a buffer. >=20 > The docstring also seems pretty clear to me. Nothing leads me to think > that I can't just >=20 > (with-help-window "foo" > (insert "bar")) >=20 > as indeed I can. And help mode is read-only so that part is clear too. >=20 > I understand that this aspect confused you, but we can't add every > possible confusion to the ELisp manual and/or docstrings. They would > end up being much too long, which would also "waste time". Therefore, > we have to focus on clarifying aspects that are confusing to many. >=20 > Is this an exact science? Not really, quite the contrary. The purpose > of these discussions is precisely to make better decisions in cases such > as these. In this case, Eli asked for my opinion, so I gave mine. There is no problem giving your opinion. What I contest is that most of th= e=20 opinions are by those who actually know to much, rather than for those who= =20 know too little. I am of the School of Thought that this should change bec= ause more information is better than less in many cases. =20 The documentation is usually of much more practical value than the docstrin= gs. I cannot see the harm if after the general docstring description there is 1. A corollary on some additional things that add value from the practical = point oy view. 2. A reference to the relevant section of the manual that would be importan= t to read about. The strain is currently put on the developer to find the way through the ju= ngle. Most people find the wolf waiting for them. This is the opinion from someone wh= o knows too little. There are many like me.