From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#60587: Patch for adding links to symbols' help documentation Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:18 +0000 Message-ID: References: <86y1qgr1bf.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> <86tu13qydg.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> <83h6x2u74b.fsf@gnu.org> <863588rfos.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> <83o7qw0yjy.fsf@gnu.org> <864jskx6a8.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> <831qnomh6l.fsf@gnu.org> <86lelvvdj1.fsf@duenenhof-wilhelm.de> <834jsjkt16.fsf@gnu.org> <835ycxjvmc.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="35534"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "dieter@duenenhof-wilhelm.de" , "60587@debbugs.gnu.org" <60587@debbugs.gnu.org>, "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 23 17:17:33 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzVl-0008z8-61 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 17:17:33 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzVY-0006n3-7x; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:17:20 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzVG-0006lb-ME for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:17:18 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzVG-0002Q3-Cf for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:17:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzVG-0005ap-11 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:17:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:17:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 60587 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 60587-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B60587.167449058521447 (code B ref 60587); Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:17:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 60587) by debbugs.gnu.org; 23 Jan 2023 16:16:25 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55168 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzUf-0005Zp-CN for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:16:25 -0500 Original-Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:27846) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pJzUc-0005Zg-PH for 60587@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 11:16:24 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0246630.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 30NEhbhA002657; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:20 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2022-7-12; bh=E3Cm5fmdBFAf14kejR/fnRJoFDNFE+xB2DnBus+YFI4=; b=1walTIC+C3CdVPmswAR5d8M4T0tYUXP+pZWmoQ0OQUQt+r42vM6O4ctGHtkbiYir/Xkf pBgPDZKzAVbXpl3RBoeH8XT74GfWOzS/BlJyhKqyAgBILZcnHRTFHGAyPdEJ6BL0MKj7 bpjOOx2KVSt6JsJ58briCU4e2728YZ3hIve1Jp+AHCHY/f+3q3mNHmnvmO9UZk5k5wKN IrGeyln6ZfblUXtZUtC61PL3sfWqJcN7ZTmHqcTWWWCTwYPxNPIdpkJcycr8nLfKior0 1wCamxSNGc3vGtIIUQ+xfbR2a/dMQ+vf3iKuoKhfkRktme5cs+Icip5QZpRHQr/A7BTC RQ== Original-Received: from iadpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (iadpaimrmta01.appoci.oracle.com [130.35.100.223]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3n86fcb7nf-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:20 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (iadpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by iadpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.17.1.5/8.17.1.5) with ESMTP id 30NG3Lrr001261; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:20 GMT Original-Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2169.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.169]) by iadpaimrmta01.imrmtpd1.prodappiadaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3n86ga0c0x-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:19 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=g92pjMTQ7fh3lCvUijXCNqOS0Xr4cr6EoTjB3aS2FEAPoul0ISzp4dvF+7hZ+PvUyZJk5KT4mpYM2OCNMbbYBIeaV0oWJHTPs4a3GYh+HB5geJQJUtH/t77EKSm4QxI1SmBJeqeZ/ZlYs4o/Y9givb2S/yiTY4BApelXKNkPKqPRGqTgP2cTNEizUyUVE0JjNKWCbvTAEY7f3dlKoylWQrqHawgAHRgYYaGR6SxHdp+j96v6sRR7n/4jsO5rMmVWdpyPTNiAsMNzmwAtZKKk6CAjZczBUvu4ykiRffPh2b/P6OpMqSXIv7fOVgnxxCIE72f9uQ55IiiuPUieJyHNkw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=E3Cm5fmdBFAf14kejR/fnRJoFDNFE+xB2DnBus+YFI4=; b=BnBhcS5MlXj6sJgQg1LyBzlshIrZCf0Ri2MVdN8sd6vyUg9ZOAtglVOliv1ocLCLGPnDRPaCSaAoyLT5b4UYGu2wxkjbEZqM7PI0sw1Njz/1mt+ZOR8RLaSX4vSCZ6jF4oD7RMnNMik5vSxq0ExB1UUVZNRqMgCT5IoWYLHQDkeYj2/mvpkrsyYyuPl73NIBn0ek76v8AdUdsVDQGLiFH28xxca+QvQVS94e8m5Hsjf3c9/g+jfX9YJHAPDdGqCL6t1QSjQKydyzOP7RyGZujazLdyp8YU5c6ksmgojCszKshArIdMVKp3linVSXN3BmuVCekPY7sHBCl324HHgodA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=E3Cm5fmdBFAf14kejR/fnRJoFDNFE+xB2DnBus+YFI4=; b=Q2J8ybsrV2IcDtqDdBUxJbVbiyrulQAsiG94jDc0q5BpPx5O3yhyI0hMJLXVfRCATbCta88Fi1a9BMSP/09oMWYG3354buBeGYUNV92lE/Dhhx5HNdg3grOAXNIKjiUYBlMTUmtpDAsydtA4jLooeUNvcSYsSf/FNv4IZxsaBoA= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BLAPR10MB5105.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:208:325::24) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6043.5; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:18 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3c:e53d:5276:ef29]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3c:e53d:5276:ef29%8]) with mapi id 15.20.6043.016; Mon, 23 Jan 2023 16:16:18 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#60587: Patch for adding links to symbols' help documentation Thread-Index: AQHZLyRCjxFD4VgT9EOP4LrDW12Nhq6sIpVQ In-Reply-To: <835ycxjvmc.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|BLAPR10MB5105:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: db920dc2-15b5-4c35-32d8-08dafd5d2895 x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230022)(346002)(396003)(136003)(39860400002)(376002)(366004)(451199015)(26005)(186003)(9686003)(7696005)(478600001)(38100700002)(122000001)(38070700005)(33656002)(6506007)(66574015)(86362001)(55016003)(5660300002)(41300700001)(8936002)(52536014)(2906002)(44832011)(316002)(6916009)(54906003)(66476007)(66556008)(66446008)(64756008)(76116006)(8676002)(66946007)(4326008)(71200400001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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 ZiRUgu93NN7eo1edHRCCiRbAyRkvm4G6SM7P8fnqQ/p1G0bBDTupIKrr4gRglVgyNlb6RAZh7oqT+GbJul+8C/RaIMrekeuzIz X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 7Kh8Mf0Il+GjXdERbA4+YjYHOyea/IJ3I3KE2G42SIGYb5krU+LXz4apM4mSZtrgBJvL+x2UMyXlL37mWDblf+Ka32LSKYtb0S X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: db920dc2-15b5-4c35-32d8-08dafd5d2895 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 23 Jan 2023 16:16:18.0842 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: MAiJclrfkXjzD8/lJlP5jj6kMfNWYP419W62WpEy6dV5zllignAYVCyW/fZCg6X8Vuu+20ImFbUcuVb3VSCymA== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLAPR10MB5105 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.219,Aquarius:18.0.930,Hydra:6.0.562,FMLib:17.11.122.1 definitions=2023-01-23_11,2023-01-23_01,2022-06-22_01 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 bulkscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 spamscore=0 malwarescore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2212070000 definitions=main-2301230155 X-Proofpoint-GUID: KFKgsMhBLx9OyOyOWKZ53vyQYWBjU8dT X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: KFKgsMhBLx9OyOyOWKZ53vyQYWBjU8dT X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:254011 Archived-At: > I don't think "button" is problematic. >=20 > > Drew thinks we should use the same standard term we > > use everywhere - including in Info: for users it's a > > link, not a button. >=20 > We use "buttons" as well as "hyperlinks". See, e.g., the node "Mouse > References" in the user manual, which basically describes the facility > Dieter intends to use. You're right - that node speaks of `"buttons", or "hyperlinks"'. And node `Scroll Bars' speaks of "the scroll bar's up and down buttons". I think such terminology is old - early/mid 90s. "Hyperlinks" is OK, but in general they're just referred to as "links" now, I think. That is, since the Internet and web took hold in a general way. The UI things that actually look like buttons, can reasonably be called "buttons", especially things that perform some _action_ other than moving to a different text location. I think this applies to icons in the tool bar and fields in the mode-line and header line, and it applies to some of the spots in Customize. I don't think it's the best term to use for text links. That there are some remaining places where Emacs or Elisp still refers to links as "buttons" isn't a reason to continue using "button" for links, in new doc or when updating existing doc (IMO). My advice is to progressively move away from such a use of "button" when doing that. But if you prefer to continue with "button", so be it. > > > If the user types "M-x describe-text-properties RET", > > > will he/she see that there's a button at point? > I meant the hyperlinks in the *Help* buffer. I see, thanks. Yes, I see that - e.g.: There are text properties here: button (t) category help-symbol-button help-args (symbol-nearest-point) However, again, this kind of help (showing text properties) essentially exposes _implementation_ names, so that's no surprise. Yes, Elisp has things called "buttons". Nothing wrong with help doing this, of course. But that's not a reason why the user doc (e.g. Emacs manual) should call links there "buttons". The current change is for Info. What terminology does the Info manual use? Searching for "button" shows that the only occurrences are for mouse buttons (physical buttons). And there are lots of occurrences of "link". _All_ mention of what we're talking about uses "link", never "button". That's how Info talks about itself and its parts. Here's a typical use of both terms from the Info manual. "Link" is the thing you see and click (or hit `RET' on). "Button" is a physical mouse part that you click. >> Now type 'n', or click the middle mouse button on the 'Next' link, to visit the next node. But if you prefer "buttons", "buttons" it is. Users will understand, either way.