From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="18196"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "65913@debbugs.gnu.org" <65913@debbugs.gnu.org>, "heimeborgia@protonmail.com" , "stefankangas@gmail.com" To: Eli Zaretskii , uzibalqa Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 14 18:05:13 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qgoq9-0004VN-BY for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 18:05:13 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopu-0005ud-JU; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:58 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopt-0005uL-M8 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:57 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopt-0002M2-Du for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:57 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopy-0007Wh-99 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:05:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169470745328824 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:05:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 16:04:13 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:40938 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgopB-0007Up-6b for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com ([205.220.177.32]:38298) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgop6-0007Uc-4C for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:04:12 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (m0333520.ppops.net [127.0.0.1]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 38EF3n8L004370; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:04:01 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2023-03-30; bh=08PIHVbnWgRcpq02hi93tFeK84bKuuePUCQlQuKUUAw=; b=jEJK/st948vMof3KiwgrOw5ZWlrpIB+oTuTLXxrghrO/mqObCOS8Zq0N/LHEzdrZgC5N Zurr068tSL0MD144JY5Md+wok9HxXxKDKmKqlcaw+GkSjKQRhOijfPJZFGOwoZV5o921 nqHHwFzQXs9PvIexJXTCRQ2pK2VZQZWTg/KGBr3VL0ovKq8do73/d3SElyzhfpLnb4cu c66GyQhgJLbAxMwmLKTRuPO1rLANNI5+CNxL6eFzWkNs3UDzvEWmTa7gx80yLw/kdqZ5 +31oTJNijEoCBhZ0D5ofdiO5rwYcxet4MQ0z4q27cg50L+jrTQJjkNroa/AkUoDWQF/Q RA== Original-Received: from phxpaimrmta03.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (phxpaimrmta03.appoci.oracle.com [138.1.37.129]) by mx0b-00069f02.pphosted.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3t2y7rdxm4-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:04:00 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (phxpaimrmta03.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com [127.0.0.1]) by phxpaimrmta03.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (8.17.1.19/8.17.1.19) with ESMTP id 38EF3KBD007342; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:59 GMT Original-Received: from nam11-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam11lp2168.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.58.168]) by phxpaimrmta03.imrmtpd1.prodappphxaev1.oraclevcn.com (PPS) with ESMTPS id 3t0f59n12a-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:59 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=QBJ876YXiRTFi8DrSWERCjkEIMnJo/Uv4kYQS6J2h439151GRXv4hZ4hoHmV0OGlo7yR8u9oQIiFDQzz2TDtGc+PHlr/H5YL9NzjFpjc4n2iU5u5bW656AZi19wOigqd9nV5ScSIdvIxp9RwuU+3iiQtuG4kIlxs6UJftX5h3NY/+iWJTOpan2nKTQq5zbWG7D9bdJCH1kZGageLfGDuqKYVypP8eOM7gaTMPwv0pRtgfMkXSEqrajbSPZOJeHcR1uvBmbGMyT85W/ol6J8p3aVwbOgWMv95KtrV8RK1EaCiJLJKrTMv15cJTyh5dc++ZklyFAzHt7kPJ+LDLiZONw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=08PIHVbnWgRcpq02hi93tFeK84bKuuePUCQlQuKUUAw=; b=jU14KT5OSHokSmLMfFPV+cTDkO8FNKZcEG0kCS3TcU8Gtp5eqOv+Xr/TYcrWK2HeXajwdp5OoJG3JNAjgHsf1fB+X76JCBDaHlCz5rq3Pq00k+V61eQdoVW7AvXqh+kVHuEL9wd+72fx1Bz9lfyUKQ2QpjQrb0SPoCksORpX3RzlTrbY+OSb4ad6l+VOxmzMv+yUNcKQ+t7MRaVOxWq6FF9b5ZSYgtupWGpjfG3wjuzwcOwVlJiLrwkGrf2s8Dj0evgJENvYK6RqwT7UQpOTVB7kn10KZIflPK19ATunXgoH8hekxJl1ErtmZZIZMqCwQoFno8rjSoaehLHMpCKeaA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=08PIHVbnWgRcpq02hi93tFeK84bKuuePUCQlQuKUUAw=; b=idJSoEUW7n4YFfut+b9QTbvivm0mXSI8Z+ZvHbhtQ7Myj9iObxer+z3cBhjarRdhG1/qo8F7pXykwF5G9kqP4Lilu+zMHleCzwi27U//JqYtCX4DIKrGmUiAbPnuTtcF/H0jwOfXchTuUwe7AbrefHaKBl6tBvVtH1uNlF3vjEY= Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:a03:37e::19) by BN0PR10MB5207.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:408:12c::12) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.6792.20; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000 Original-Received: from SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3b:c5a0:5222:69a4]) by SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::7c3b:c5a0:5222:69a4%7]) with mapi id 15.20.6792.019; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Thread-Index: AQHZ5sevdJM84ka1okCRnkuTUxBBbLAacHHg In-Reply-To: <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SJ0PR10MB5488:EE_|BN0PR10MB5207:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 282afa3f-82d5-45ab-1a7a-08dbb53c333b x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 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 x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(13230031)(376002)(136003)(396003)(346002)(366004)(39860400002)(186009)(1800799009)(451199024)(86362001)(66556008)(110136005)(76116006)(66946007)(66476007)(66446008)(54906003)(64756008)(2906002)(55016003)(33656002)(122000001)(316002)(966005)(478600001)(38100700002)(38070700005)(44832011)(41300700001)(4326008)(8936002)(8676002)(52536014)(5660300002)(26005)(83380400001)(9686003)(7696005)(6506007)(71200400001); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-chunkcount: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata-0: 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 mgp6m/PTuouhvsT1jrtOyGwNd2sH2/F41M6nmhFS5s/gLfAFwId6wMVq1FK8UeMlysBoaV3LvUdLppZGF43RshubZ+uhug2WTP X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-ExternalHop-MessageData-0: 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 gwyqZp+F+w2h8IDChKWQ2Mhm8CGOc4VnXG54BDbC0qTlQ8wpCoc5EeWqC4C3vcF95jb6ovYKpzRljgYbRRONCCW3IkZnvvdd7W X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SJ0PR10MB5488.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 282afa3f-82d5-45ab-1a7a-08dbb53c333b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 14 Sep 2023 16:03:56.4988 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: JwaXs9DFzUmVlm/MWj04M+/uV/s2n3dDji9GswFbS/RBwS6A6kE0zAwD6g3L1hkpJILndi2zLNvrjjndZEz8Mg== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BN0PR10MB5207 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=baseguard engine=ICAP:2.0.267,Aquarius:18.0.980,Hydra:6.0.601,FMLib:17.11.176.26 definitions=2023-09-14_09,2023-09-14_01,2023-05-22_02 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 mlxlogscore=999 mlxscore=0 adultscore=0 phishscore=0 spamscore=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 bulkscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2308100000 definitions=main-2309140139 X-Proofpoint-ORIG-GUID: Hpd6zTHQwpOu0ZlxNFnu5-ZSDAYsodYg X-Proofpoint-GUID: Hpd6zTHQwpOu0ZlxNFnu5-ZSDAYsodYg X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:270445 Archived-At: > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Amen. This is a common request from users, who sometimes expect a complete answer to their question - aimed at their particular immediate context/problem - or a complete understanding of something, to be right in front of them, at the first page or help msg they encounter. And they want it to be aimed at their particular level of background understanding. It's an individualistic, "Gimme, gimme, gimme, me!" approach, naively ignoring the fact that whatever help they hope to find will likely aim to also help others, with different backgrounds, questions, contexts, problems. I'm guessing this can also come partly from a frustration from _searching_ as the main - or even the only - navigation users employ. Search can be very good, or very bad. Some experience/knowledge are needed to search effectively, as well as good search tools. Emacs has good search tools. The first thing users should learn is how to Ask Emacs. The help commands of course, and later even how to ask using Lisp etc. A just-what-I-need-right-here-right-now expectation is a problem for help/documentation in general, but especially so nowadays, when it's no longer the case (if it ever was) that readers start at the start of a book and read sequentially. Now, more than ever, "Every Page Is Page One". https://everypageispageone.com/ Readers arrive at a URL by googling or following a link from somewhere. Off the web, inside Emacs, they arrive at an Info node or a *Help* description directly. The solution to the "problem" is for every "page" to provide relevant links to other pages/topics. Every one. That way, wherever you start you can pretty much follow the paths you want, to get the info you need. It's not a simple problem with a trivial solution. Deciding what goes into a given "page"/topic, and which other topics to link to, is a judgment call - or more correctly lots of judgment calls. And that means that even with the "best" design, for some set of targeted readers/users, some will be frustrated. (Even deciding what the targeted set of readers should be is non-trivial and involves compromises.) A good model of a generally helpful doc system is Wikipedia. Emacs help and doc are pretty darn good. This is largely because Emacs maintainers - first RMS and now Eli, in particular - have long been hugely interested in the help/doc - self-documenting - feature/aspect of Emacs. Emacs didn't exactly invent self-documenting, perhaps, but it nearly did so. > Consulting the documentation is one of the > first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. Agreed. There's no excuse for not dipping into the manuals. Or for not taking advantage of other sources: tutorials, videos Q&A venues, etc. Different users learn differently, of course. That said, more links from *Help* to manuals could help, I think.