* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
@ 2023-12-06 21:47 Xiyue Deng
[not found] ` <handler.67669.B.170189926211616.ack@debbugs.gnu.org>
2023-12-07 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-06 21:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 67669
In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be
precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially
using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks
like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before
using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on
the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea
nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice?
[1] https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/tree/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi#n8597
In GNU Emacs 29.1 (build 1, x86_64-pc-linux-gnu, GTK+ Version 3.24.37,
cairo version 1.16.0) of 2023-09-19, modified by Debian built on
debian-hx90
System Description: Debian GNU/Linux 12 (bookworm)
Configured using:
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/usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa/tabbar-20160524/aquamacs-tools hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/tabbar-20160524/aquamacs-tools
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/home/xiyueden/.config/emacs/elpa/vterm-20230417.424/vterm hides /usr/share/emacs/site-lisp/elpa-src/vterm-0.0.2/vterm
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/home/xiyueden/.config/emacs/elpa/seq-2.24/seq hides /usr/share/emacs/29.1/lisp/emacs-lisp/seq
Features:
(shadow emacsbug noutline outline two-column magit-patch magit-subtree
magit-gitignore magit-ediff ediff ediff-merg ediff-mult ediff-wind
ediff-diff ediff-help ediff-init ediff-util misearch multi-isearch
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url-auth url-queue url-cache flow-fill mailalias mule-util matlab
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uni-confusable textsec-check gnus-async gnus-bcklg qp gnus-ml gnus-topic
cursor-sensor utf-7 nnfolder gnus-demon nnml ezgnus gnus-delay
gnus-draft gnus-agent gnus-srvr gnus-score score-mode nnvirtual nntp
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gnus-sum shr pixel-fill kinsoku url-file svg dom nndraft nnmh gnus-group
gnus-undo smtpmail gnus-start gnus-dbus dbus xml gnus-cloud nnimap
nnmail mail-source utf7 nnoo gnus-spec gnus-int gnus-range message
sendmail yank-media dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec mm-decode
mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231 rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums
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mail-utils range mm-util mail-prsvr windmove flyspell ispell gnutls
network-stream puny nsm epa-file epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config
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vc-sccs vc-svn vc-cvs vc-rcs log-view pcvs-util vc vc-dispatcher
bug-reference disp-table whitespace yasnippet-snippets yasnippet
cus-edit pp cus-start wid-edit company-oddmuse company-keywords
company-etags etags fileloop generator xref company-gtags
company-dabbrev-code company-dabbrev company-files company-clang
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keychain-environment exec-path-from-shell icomplete cus-load
flymake-proc flymake project compile text-property-search comint
ansi-osc ansi-color ring warnings icons thingatpt advice cl-extra
help-mode use-package use-package-ensure use-package-delight
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boxquote-autoloads buttercup-autoloads cmake-mode-autoloads
company-autoloads diminish-autoloads eldoc-autoloads eproject-autoloads
flutter-autoloads folding-autoloads git-modes-autoloads
gnuplot-autoloads helm-autoloads helm-core-autoloads async-autoloads
htmlize-autoloads initsplit-autoloads js2-mode-autoloads
markdown-mode-autoloads matlab-mode-autoloads meson-mode-autoloads
popup-autoloads project-autoloads rust-mode-autoloads session-autoloads
tabbar-autoloads vterm-autoloads web-mode-autoloads wfnames-autoloads
yaml-mode-autoloads yasnippet-snippets-autoloads zenburn-theme-autoloads
dpkg-dev-el debian-el finder-inf with-editor-autoloads info
compat-autoloads seq-autoloads package browse-url url url-proxy
url-privacy url-expand url-methods url-history url-cookie
generate-lisp-file url-domsuf url-util mailcap url-handlers url-parse
auth-source cl-seq eieio eieio-core cl-macs password-cache json subr-x
map byte-opt gv bytecomp byte-compile url-vars cl-loaddefs cl-lib rmc
iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook
vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/x-win x-win
term/common-win x-dnd tool-bar dnd fontset image regexp-opt fringe
tabulated-list replace newcomment text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register
page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow isearch easymenu timer select
scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax font-core term/tty-colors
frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic indonesian philippine
cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese tibetan thai tai-viet lao
korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek romanian slovak czech
european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese composite emoji-zwj charscript
charprop case-table epa-hook jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure
cl-preloaded button loaddefs theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp
files window text-properties overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env
code-pages mule custom widget keymap hashtable-print-readable backquote
threads dbusbind inotify lcms2 dynamic-setting system-font-setting
font-render-setting cairo move-toolbar gtk x-toolkit xinput2 x multi-tty
make-network-process native-compile emacs)
Memory information:
((conses 16 1684572 132945)
(symbols 48 35974 3)
(strings 32 155751 28823)
(string-bytes 1 4601555)
(vectors 16 98583)
(vector-slots 8 2540442 155011)
(floats 8 607 2878)
(intervals 56 60456 1450)
(buffers 984 66))
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread[parent not found: <handler.67669.B.170189926211616.ack@debbugs.gnu.org>]
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
[not found] ` <handler.67669.B.170189926211616.ack@debbugs.gnu.org>
@ 2023-12-06 22:08 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-06 22:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: 67669
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 79 bytes --]
Please see the following patch that whether it makes sense to drop that
part.
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: 0001-Drop-text-suggesting-using-and-to-replace-if-Bug-676.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 1259 bytes --]
From 0362b90b2ded998f8a4bcf307ca4b89de561beec Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 6 Dec 2023 13:38:51 -0800
Subject: [PATCH] Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' (Bug#67669)
* doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi (kill-new function): drop
obsolete text that refers to an earlier version of the code example.
---
doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi | 4 +---
1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 3 deletions(-)
diff --git a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
index d6627a2a1ca..c1e220518ca 100644
--- a/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
+++ b/doc/lispintro/emacs-lisp-intro.texi
@@ -8905,9 +8905,7 @@ The expression looks like this:
If an @code{interprogram-cut-function} exists, then Emacs executes
@code{funcall}, which in turn calls its first argument as a function
-and passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I
-can see, this @code{if} expression could be replaced by an @code{and}
-expression similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
+and passes the remaining arguments to it.
We are not going to discuss windowing systems and other programs
further, but merely note that this is a mechanism that enables GNU
--
2.39.2
[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 16 bytes --]
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply related [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-06 21:47 bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Xiyue Deng
[not found] ` <handler.67669.B.170189926211616.ack@debbugs.gnu.org>
@ 2023-12-07 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 9:08 ` Xiyue Deng
1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-12-07 6:28 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:47:02 -0800
>
>
> In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be
> precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially
> using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks
> like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before
> using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on
> the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea
> nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice?
AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
The expression looks like this:
(if interprogram-cut-function
(funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-07 9:08 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-07 9:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669
Hi Eli,
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
>> Date: Wed, 06 Dec 2023 13:47:02 -0800
>>
>>
>> In section "the `kill-new' function" - the third last paragraph to be
>> precise - there are some texts in parentheses that discusses potentially
>> using an `and' to replace the `if' statement being discussed. It looks
>> like to be referring to an earlier version of the code example[1] before
>> using the version from Emacs 22. Meanwhile, it looks like relying on
>> the side effect of `and' to emulate an `if' may not be a good idea
>> nowadays. So is it OK to drop this advice?
>
> AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
>
> The expression looks like this:
>
> (if interprogram-cut-function
> (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
>
> If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
> ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
> passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
> see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
> similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
>
> I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
> the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be
replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of
the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example
code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a
bit. It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that
the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first
email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which
no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses
you quoted to be obsolete.
And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably
not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'.
>
> Thanks.
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 9:08 ` Xiyue Deng
@ 2023-12-07 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-12-07 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 01:08:51 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
> >
> > The expression looks like this:
> >
> > (if interprogram-cut-function
> > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
> >
> > If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
> > ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
> > passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
> > see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
> > similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
> >
> > I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
> > the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
>
> Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be
> replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of
> the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example
> code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a
> bit.
I think it means this part earlier in the node:
(if (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
(menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
> It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that
> the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first
> email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which
> no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses
> you quoted to be obsolete.
I don't think so.
> And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably
> not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'.
I disagree. I think the discussion of 'if' and 'and' there is
entirely appropriate and educational, and I personally do use these
interchangeably in some situations.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
` (2 more replies)
0 siblings, 3 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-07 17:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 01:08:51 -0800
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> > AFAIU, the relevant fragment is:
>> >
>> > The expression looks like this:
>> >
>> > (if interprogram-cut-function
>> > (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
>> >
>> > If an ‘interprogram-cut-function’ exists, then Emacs executes
>> > ‘funcall’, which in turn calls its first argument as a function and
>> > passes the remaining arguments to it. (Incidentally, as far as I can
>> > see, this ‘if’ expression could be replaced by an ‘and’ expression
>> > similar to the one in the first part of the function.)
>> >
>> > I don't see anything wrong here. Can you elaborate on why you think
>> > the text in parentheses is inaccurate or incorrect or unclear?
>>
>> Sorry I wasn't very clear. I was referring to the part "... could be
>> replaced by an ‘and’ expression similar to _the one in the first part of
>> the function_." But when I tried to search for `and' in the example
>> code of that section I found no `and' usage at all, which confused me a
>> bit.
>
> I think it means this part earlier in the node:
>
> (if (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
> (menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
To be super nitpicking, the text said "the one in the _first part_ of
the function", while this code snippet you quoted is the second
statement in the code example. If we look at the old code (which is
currently marked as ignore in the texi source), the first part is:
(and (fboundp 'menu-bar-update-yank-menu)
(menu-bar-update-yank-menu string (and replace (car kill-ring))))
Which IMHO lets the text make more sense. But anyway.
>
>> It was not until I looked at the texi source that I noticed that
>> the original example code did use `and' which I linked in my first
>> email, and it was later replace by the current one from Emacs 22 which
>> no longer used `and'. Thus I would consider the text in the parentheses
>> you quoted to be obsolete.
>
> I don't think so.
>
>> And of course as I mentioned in the previous email, IMHO it is probably
>> not a good advice to use `and' to emulate `if'.
>
> I disagree. I think the discussion of 'if' and 'and' there is
> entirely appropriate and educational, and I personally do use these
> interchangeably in some situations.
Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
(as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
the original example around the text we are discussing:
(if interprogram-cut-function
(funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
as we are also guarding a side effect here.
Wdyt?
[1] https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/14204
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
@ 2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 19:54 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 19:37 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-08 10:45 ` Sean Whitton
2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-12-07 17:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:49:13 -0800
>
> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
> the original example around the text we are discussing:
>
> (if interprogram-cut-function
> (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
>
> as we are also guarding a side effect here.
>
> Wdyt?
Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect",
and I'm not sure where this discussion goes. If the issue is personal
stylistic preferences, then I'd prefer to leave the text as it was
according to the preferences of the original author (which I happen to
share, but that's not important).
OK?
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-07 19:54 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-07 19:54 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669-done
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 09:49:13 -0800
>>
>> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
>> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
>> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
>> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
>> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
>> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
>> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
>> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
>> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
>> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
>> the original example around the text we are discussing:
>>
>> (if interprogram-cut-function
>> (funcall interprogram-cut-function string (not replace))))
>>
>> as we are also guarding a side effect here.
>>
>> Wdyt?
>
> Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect",
I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
use the side effect.
> and I'm not sure where this discussion goes. If the issue is personal
> stylistic preferences, then I'd prefer to leave the text as it was
> according to the preferences of the original author (which I happen to
> share, but that's not important).
>
> OK?
As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either.
Thanks for listening, and let me close this.
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 19:54 ` Xiyue Deng
@ 2023-12-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 20:37 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-12-07 20:22 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669-done
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 11:54:20 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect",
>
> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
> use the side effect.
But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
Consider this random example:
(defsubst posn-area (position)
[...]
(let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
(car (nth 1 position))
(nth 1 position))))
(and (symbolp area) area)))
Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
> As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either.
> Thanks for listening, and let me close this.
Thanks.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-07 20:37 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 21:29 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-07 20:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669-done
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 11:54:20 -0800
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> > Sorry, I don't understand what you mean by "guarding a side effect",
>>
>> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
>> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
>> use the side effect.
>
> But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
> Consider this random example:
>
> (defsubst posn-area (position)
> [...]
> (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
> (car (nth 1 position))
> (nth 1 position))))
> (and (symbolp area) area)))
>
> Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
Well if we use `if' with else then yes. Actually as Drew pointed out
this suggestion makes more sense if we are comparing `and' and `when'
(a.k.a. if without else), but point taken.
>
>> As I was just trying to argue just "a bit", I won't be insisting either.
>> Thanks for listening, and let me close this.
>
> Thanks.
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 20:37 ` Xiyue Deng
@ 2023-12-07 21:29 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-08 9:11 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
1 sibling, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2023-12-07 21:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng, Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> Well if we use `if' with else then yes.
Even if we use it with THEN.
`if' and `cond' are completely general and
don't, by themselves abstractly, suggest
any particular connotation for a human
reader. They can return any value you like.
Whether the value returned is used anywhere
is neither determined nor suggested by any
convention.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 21:29 ` Drew Adams
@ 2023-12-08 9:11 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-08 9:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> Well if we use `if' with else then yes.
>
> Even if we use it with THEN.
>
> `if' and `cond' are completely general and
> don't, by themselves abstractly, suggest
> any particular connotation for a human
> reader. They can return any value you like.
> Whether the value returned is used anywhere
> is neither determined nor suggested by any
> convention.
Ack. As I replied to Eli, TIL that `and' and `if' are actually used
interchangeably in Elisp. Thanks!
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 20:37 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 21:29 ` Drew Adams
@ 2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-08 9:07 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 15:37 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 2 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2023-12-08 6:25 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669
> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
> Cc: 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:37:58 -0800
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
> >> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
> >> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
> >> use the side effect.
> >
> > But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
> > Consider this random example:
> >
> > (defsubst posn-area (position)
> > [...]
> > (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
> > (car (nth 1 position))
> > (nth 1 position))))
> > (and (symbolp area) area)))
> >
> > Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
>
> Well if we use `if' with else then yes.
No. When 'if' has no 'else' clause, and the test fails, 'if' returns
nil. This is used in many places in our code. Like this:
(let (baz)
(setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz))))
=> "bar"
Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of 'concat' to ignore
nil arguments.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-08 9:07 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 15:37 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-08 9:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669
Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> From: Xiyue Deng <manphiz@gmail.com>
>> Cc: 67669-done@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Thu, 07 Dec 2023 12:37:58 -0800
>>
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>> >> I was referring to whether we care about and use the result of the
>> >> statement/function call. In `and' we do, in `if' we don't and we just
>> >> use the side effect.
>> >
>> > But that's not true. 'if' does return a value, and we do use it.
>> > Consider this random example:
>> >
>> > (defsubst posn-area (position)
>> > [...]
>> > (let ((area (if (consp (nth 1 position))
>> > (car (nth 1 position))
>> > (nth 1 position))))
>> > (and (symbolp area) area)))
>> >
>> > Here we bind 'area' to the value returned by 'if'.
>>
>> Well if we use `if' with else then yes.
>
> No. When 'if' has no 'else' clause, and the test fails, 'if' returns
> nil. This is used in many places in our code. Like this:
>
> (let (baz)
> (setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz))))
> => "bar"
>
> Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of 'concat' to ignore
> nil arguments.
Ah I see. So it looks like in Elisp `and' and `if' are actually used
interchangeably. This was not very obvious at first for me who's more
familiar with other imperative languages. TIL. Thanks!
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-08 9:07 ` Xiyue Deng
@ 2023-12-08 15:37 ` Drew Adams
1 sibling, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2023-12-08 15:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii, Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
> (let (baz)
> (setq foo (concat "bar" (if (stringp baz) baz))))
> => "bar"
>
> Here 'if' returns nil, and we use the feature of
> 'concat' to ignore nil arguments.
IMO the meaning/behavior is clearer with `and':
(let (baz)
(setq foo (concat "bar" (and (stringp baz) baz))))
But again, such stylistic concerns are exactly that.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2023-12-07 19:37 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-07 20:00 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 10:45 ` Sean Whitton
2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Drew Adams @ 2023-12-07 19:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng, Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: 67669@debbugs.gnu.org
> I quite like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
> effects,
More clearly, `when' and `unless' (not `if', which is general - no special suggestion) are used to suggest (to humans) that they're used _only_ to perform side effects. With this convention, code shouldn't depend on their (always `nil') return value.
> whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
That too isn't really the convention (though it is what's said in that emacs.SE answer).
What should be said is that you use `and' and `or' when _the return value matters_, i.e., when it's used somewhere.
That does _not_ preclude the use of `and' and `or' to perform side effects. It's simply that the _return value matters_. Unlike `progn', the (Boolean) return value of each of their "steps" (sexps) determines whether subsequent ones are evaluated.
I've added another answer to the emacs.SE question you cited:
https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/79744/105
But as you correctly noted, such conventions are a question of personal (or group) coding style. Lisp doesn't care or recognize any such meaning.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 19:37 ` Drew Adams
@ 2023-12-07 20:00 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-07 20:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Drew Adams; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, 67669-done
Hi Drew,
Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:
>> I quite like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
>> effects,
>
> More clearly, `when' and `unless' (not `if', which is general - no
> special suggestion) are used to suggest (to humans) that they're used
> _only_ to perform side effects. With this convention, code shouldn't
> depend on their (always `nil') return value.
>
>> whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
>
> That too isn't really the convention (though it is what's said in that emacs.SE answer).
>
> What should be said is that you use `and' and `or' when _the return value matters_, i.e., when it's used somewhere.
>
> That does _not_ preclude the use of `and' and `or' to perform side
> effects. It's simply that the _return value matters_. Unlike
> `progn', the (Boolean) return value of each of their "steps" (sexps)
> determines whether subsequent ones are evaluated.
Agreed here. I was quoting the SE answer for the "pure function" part,
but indeed I also think what matters is whether we use the results.
>
> I've added another answer to the emacs.SE question you cited:
>
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/a/79744/105
>
> But as you correctly noted, such conventions are a question of personal (or group) coding style. Lisp doesn't care or recognize any such meaning.
Also agreed. And I've since closed this. Thanks for the discussion!
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 19:37 ` Drew Adams
@ 2023-12-08 10:45 ` Sean Whitton
2023-12-08 22:41 ` Xiyue Deng
2 siblings, 1 reply; 19+ messages in thread
From: Sean Whitton @ 2023-12-08 10:45 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Xiyue Deng; +Cc: 67669, Eli Zaretskii
Hello,
On Thu 07 Dec 2023 at 09:49am -08, Xiyue Deng wrote:
> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
> the original example around the text we are discussing:
It's an old Lisp convention, not Emacs-specific, to use 'and' for return
value and 'when' for side-effects, and not to use 'if' when there is no
'else' clause.
--
Sean Whitton
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
* bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if'
2023-12-08 10:45 ` Sean Whitton
@ 2023-12-08 22:41 ` Xiyue Deng
0 siblings, 0 replies; 19+ messages in thread
From: Xiyue Deng @ 2023-12-08 22:41 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Sean Whitton; +Cc: 67669, Eli Zaretskii
Sean Whitton <spwhitton@spwhitton.name> writes:
> Hello,
>
> On Thu 07 Dec 2023 at 09:49am -08, Xiyue Deng wrote:
>
>> Agreed on the point of being educational, and of course in the end
>> coding style is mostly a matter of personal preference. However, I
>> would argue a bit that in such case we wouldn't need `if' or `when' at
>> all as both can be emulated by `and' and `or' if you are careful enough.
>> On the other hand, `if' and `when' should exist for a reason. I quite
>> like this suggestion[1] that `if' and `when' are used to guard side
>> effects, whereas `and' and `or' are used for pure functions.
>> Interestingly the current example you quoted changed from using `and'
>> (as in the old version I quoted) to `if' probably based on this
>> reasoning. Similarly I wouldn't suggest to replace `if' with `and' in
>> the original example around the text we are discussing:
>
> It's an old Lisp convention, not Emacs-specific, to use 'and' for return
> value and 'when' for side-effects, and not to use 'if' when there is no
> 'else' clause.
Ack. Thanks for the historical tip!
--
Xiyue Deng
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 19+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-12-08 22:41 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 19+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed
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2023-12-06 21:47 bug#67669: 29.1; Drop text suggesting using `and' to replace `if' Xiyue Deng
[not found] ` <handler.67669.B.170189926211616.ack@debbugs.gnu.org>
2023-12-06 22:08 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 9:08 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 10:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 17:49 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 17:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 19:54 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 20:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-07 20:37 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-07 21:29 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-08 9:11 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-12-08 9:07 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 15:37 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-07 19:37 ` Drew Adams
2023-12-07 20:00 ` Xiyue Deng
2023-12-08 10:45 ` Sean Whitton
2023-12-08 22:41 ` Xiyue Deng
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