From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#70784: Abolish string resizing Date: Sun, 5 May 2024 18:09:38 +0000 Message-ID: References: <864jbce4nx.fsf@gnu.org> <9416BCF1-C394-483A-80DC-D6BBD10F48FE@gmail.com> <86v83scmey.fsf@gnu.org> <86ikzschgu.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Drew Adams Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32552"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "mattias.engdegard@gmail.com" , "70784@debbugs.gnu.org" <70784@debbugs.gnu.org>, "monnier@iro.umontreal.ca" To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sun May 05 20:10:48 2024 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1s3gK0-0008GC-E0 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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Let's see what others think. > > > > Next on Matthias's immutable list of > > "improvements": doing away with mutable lists. > > Poor Lisp. >=20 > Your opinions might be more important to > read and consider if you drop the sarcasm. > There are no enemies of Lisp here. No one (except you) spoke of "enemies" of Lisp. Without sarcasm: From Mattias in bug 70155 thread: Of course if you ask me, I'd prefer it if lists were guaranteed to be proper, immutable, with the empty list an object distinct from the symbol nil and the false boolean value. Maybe next year. Was _that_ sarcasm, or was it straightforward? I took it at face value. And coincidentally we now see this string "enhancement" suggestion, along the same line from the same friend. My response to this line is "poor Lisp" (or "poor Elisp") - without sarcasm. And nothing personal. OK, yes, Scheme is in the Lisp family, and its nil is only the empty list, not also false. (I'd say "poor Lisp" there too, but not as strongly.) And Clojure is often considered to be in the Lisp family, and it uses immutable data more, including lists. Elisp is more related to Common Lisp. And mutable lists and dotted lists are _fundamental_ for this part of the family (and for Scheme as well). Nothing says "Lisp" more than its cons. Proposing that Elisp lists be only _proper_ (never dotted) and _immutable_ is a _radical_ departure from Lisp. I don't take that proposal as coming from any "enemy of Lisp". I don't see any enemies here (do you?). I'm not in favor of such a proposal; that's all. Likewise for the current proposal, to make strings immutable (abolish string resizing). That one wasn't even on the "Maybe next year" list. It's apparently on the this-year list. Just one opinion.