From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#66247: 29.1; Transient frame problems with Emacs 29 on MS Windows Date: Fri, 29 Sep 2023 16:17:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87y1gpn5a9.fsf@yahoo.com> <87ttrdn16x.fsf@yahoo.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="26489"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "66247@debbugs.gnu.org" <66247@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Po Lu Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Fri Sep 29 18:19:03 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qmGCk-0006Xb-Ub for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; 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That helps. > > > > I see mention of this in NEWS, now. And I see > > it described in (elisp) `Management Parameters'. > > > > However, the positive reason that the default > > behavior was changed is not really developed. > > Both NEWS and the Elisp manual just say that > > the default behavior (double buffering) aims > > "to reduce display flicker". Can you (and the > > doc) please say more? >=20 > No, because the flicker manifests differently > for each person who encounters it. Sounds like a cop-out. Especially if someone hasn't seen any flicker before. > > And this language in the manual is, I think, > > unfortunate: if you "pine for that retro, > > flicker-y feeling" then set the parameter to t. >=20 > I agree. How about fixing it? The doc gives the impression that there's something wrong with what was formerly the default behavior, suggesting that if you now jump through the added hoop to change that option value you're somehow looking for trouble, instead of just restoring (at least partially) NON-flickering. > > Has anyone ever really reported any such flicker > > on MS Windows? I've never noticed any "display > > flicker" there. Quite the opposite. I used >=20 > That's subject to the graphics driver installed, I believe. Many MS > Windows users reported severe flicker while scrolling in the past, a > problem that has all but vanished with the introduction of double > buffering. Many MS Windows users? Are you sure? And how many had no problem, and so never sent a non-complaint because of no flickering, let along no "severe" flickering? IOW, what makes you think there was a big problem that needed fixing, and especially what makes you think that that "fix" should be imposed as the new default behavior? It might be subject to the graphics driver, but FWIW, I've been using Emacs on Windows since the 90s, which obviously means with multiple different graphics drivers, and until _now_ I've never had a problem with frame modification and display. I wouldn't have a problem with Emacs offering double-buffering for MS Windows, as an opt-in option. But: 1. Why change the _default_ behavior? 2. Can you please fix the no-longer-default, longstanding-default behavior, so that frame=20 modification is as smooth and as quick as before (no jerky, delayed re-creation of some parts, such as frame edge/scroll-bars)? For me, this change is a fairly big regression. Not just no gain, but added pain. Unnecessary pain. Changing default behavior shouldn't, in general, happen willy-nilly with a new release. It's generally better to wait for user experience and request - even a long time - before changing the _default_ behavior. Emacs dev used to be very respectful of that. Don't "fix" default behavior, if it ain't broke. You may be trying to make Emacs on MS Windows seem more like Emacs on GNU/Linux, but that shouldn't include making frame display worse.