From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#46084: [External] : Re: bug#46084: 26.3; Elisp manual: provide a link to (eintro) up front Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:48 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87o8hbdrh1.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32705"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: "46084@debbugs.gnu.org" <46084@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Jan 27 03:59:20 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b3A-0008O3-5K for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 03:59:20 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53426 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b39-0008AX-8N for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:59:19 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:49636) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b2r-0008A5-QE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:59:01 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:59883) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b2r-0004FB-Ih for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:59:01 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b2r-0007NP-IR for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:59:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Drew Adams Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:59:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 46084 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 46084-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B46084.161171634028348 (code B ref 46084); Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:59:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 46084) by debbugs.gnu.org; 27 Jan 2021 02:59:00 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43196 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b2p-0007NA-Ug for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:59:00 -0500 Original-Received: from aserp2130.oracle.com ([141.146.126.79]:40708) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1l4b2n-0007Mw-Ch for 46084@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 26 Jan 2021 21:58:58 -0500 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2130.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2130.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 10R2nRRV073770; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:51 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=from : to : cc : subject : date : message-id : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding : mime-version; s=corp-2020-01-29; bh=L3B7fTPVbXiJs839c0YH99esoasEo/DfhnbctGG0SIM=; b=jvXfGGzng3twr5OVF9vtUXZhR2VUnzrd34u8ol/8fJGy0hj1rsZWjOcH7Bl/+uTRRVSp 4Y6yPU/nQtnNqQM8fPIfI3CXKzD0uwN+Cc5Gxoew1R11kiX3FuCLk2EKhMcaXq+T8gc9 tG0l/EVgmZYzqDiOODwraEqwIt1d5cmGgRIGFCHaccIC7yNhdkzEtHNzGtW+M0LUL9pe Z9W9VCRU3Ez2Ug/Dx45jRy4rmmirzKLNBiz5MURLODMqYPkkN/dpWALsU/VhzEdnwk1C 1yzoMgHlgZmlTj6u+eTf1Pjb1u6MsfAYsI432c/3nSci/ZRiRqlHrB+UQPtjdLQcfUDc bQ== Original-Received: from aserp3030.oracle.com (aserp3030.oracle.com [141.146.126.71]) by aserp2130.oracle.com with ESMTP id 3689aan527-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:50 +0000 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp3030.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp3030.oracle.com (8.16.0.42/8.16.0.42) with SMTP id 10R2p5K0074403; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:50 GMT Original-Received: from nam04-bn8-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (mail-bn8nam08lp2040.outbound.protection.outlook.com [104.47.74.40]) by aserp3030.oracle.com with ESMTP id 368wcnq0mt-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:50 +0000 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=Hp2h08syRJQqtsMD2dSDUWAZIVCH1kjYyQutm1IFBRJJQD0b21PcgUv+M9jYkJT6pTKMe1yDoMOwf4RT9It9d2Nx9J/7+7l6WQEPvUoV+EkyP+OUjhtHlX2v+aYw2TJsPMOXIvHpC7QrYX/7mEYhu+VftGNr69iRfytOP8K1xR/AESQmLVxRRnlM1NSSjwqRGN1YhIsXGEFeWqWYgnnQycok/eIVvMaeD6Os946agsElfVBBF/NAuOAfqizOtggrLCJQ1m1ez5fKIeu9Uy7C2iU6Ozuc6sG7KPcWqoj9slXpHY5YLSxeCgoVpxt3AvmOPva5t07vsHZUquqTIlox3w== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=L3B7fTPVbXiJs839c0YH99esoasEo/DfhnbctGG0SIM=; b=B8THI773NRL1aqr4JQIMcexlvZyBIvMC90smLYTd4dyuJGC+MRyshWRnx8SR8ToTLUh8KkLVtg2h+1dSO8RL28y9iR82BH5AK1HQUgPjZTcRv0wqlsooWDSV9yhNvLBnIoV8uT2xfcOiFjqgXAwXLZQsaOS9Ur2+w4FA3utxkfdOchPipc5SjPC56aiiiefFek6zTB0dMYO2xTqsmcOtiEd6ctczAV0fFftr2phaJYCxR70mf8i3tf5iHMDuHzRjVU6KBjQ0Sv5jl9oQNV25jYN1yiuZD9+IPVPlluWGLOUHZtZKiPdMAWKFaSxXtx4fjRb7IzxKj4jbScX09Q01Xw== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=oracle.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=oracle.com; dkim=pass header.d=oracle.com; arc=none DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.onmicrosoft.com; s=selector2-oracle-onmicrosoft-com; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck; bh=L3B7fTPVbXiJs839c0YH99esoasEo/DfhnbctGG0SIM=; b=VCO4LtQwJu9slRCnhrkONiC2AB3935jiCzhBF0EC4MQGC8sl4htx5MleODBlzMG/yeeX4Qh+UU0ihZMemP//mJ5wXfZxYNL1/HZseTN15P/uF1NEmFCVODqOYPPvHzR0X6Bc/Pm8ZpYDH3YyDGxPdE+Cjv6JO/kHRGyQ+mCbClk= Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:806:11b::15) by SN6PR10MB2784.namprd10.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:805:d7::20) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.3784.11; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:48 +0000 Original-Received: from SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2]) by SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::dc4d:9cd0:2010:daa2%7]) with mapi id 15.20.3784.019; Wed, 27 Jan 2021 02:58:48 +0000 Thread-Topic: [External] : Re: bug#46084: 26.3; Elisp manual: provide a link to (eintro) up front Thread-Index: AdbygoFpRJUfKI1dSbil77bG0/4cYQB1IQ+YAAAQ7wA= In-Reply-To: <87o8hbdrh1.fsf@gnus.org> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US authentication-results: gnus.org; dkim=none (message not signed) header.d=none;gnus.org; dmarc=none action=none header.from=oracle.com; x-originating-ip: [73.170.83.28] x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: f6def323-a984-46da-09c5-08d8c26f785c x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: SN6PR10MB2784: x-microsoft-antispam-prvs: x-ms-oob-tlc-oobclassifiers: OLM:9508; x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0; x-microsoft-antispam-message-info: 6DuFkhNJnSiknhtcHDyD1RXSFxyfyCSk3LxOVpCgSax6x7dnzt8PaP3YduuL5Yun/ShqJFO/AqJFWEPTVje/9i2QPPMv46Hopvl/CuWyfvJldLPAoJaygYgSpEl2Ty03wP/eXryf7KY9zdPYUinWMQbDE9KVE7M0MC3gimB3i8OtR5w+HszzKKeo9RTNPWElz4vdEs4p8MzaCYwKK3cpoml3dZawGvO2mDZG3kfMobNSx9Mnz0NrFLqxSZScBMaQIsIvO+nCaJBgfE5uvYEswcxHONBpu864LIiKYUgXQVIGHw68np2gO0DUb29oeAw7gzeDSQ0p4Y0OoQ1Ktx5az6G0/q55mo9ZWlnVzxXRyLQSv9U+IpdlayW0Iwe7ry0SLDaEyMXelK2djlmMcPuJdw== x-forefront-antispam-report: CIP:255.255.255.255; CTRY:; LANG:en; SCL:1; SRV:; IPV:NLI; SFV:NSPM; H:SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com; PTR:; CAT:NONE; SFS:(366004)(376002)(346002)(136003)(39860400002)(396003)(8676002)(9686003)(55016002)(52536014)(7696005)(66556008)(44832011)(76116006)(2906002)(33656002)(316002)(66446008)(6916009)(71200400001)(478600001)(26005)(8936002)(6506007)(86362001)(66476007)(4326008)(66946007)(64756008)(186003)(5660300002); DIR:OUT; SFP:1101; x-ms-exchange-antispam-messagedata: 0y3qNRMArYq66yLSx+t8PFNRcisJCTcKO49c3lYwj0IAi3bzQ8LFNwfEYY5UoI6t1NmPQcSgeZi783Y7ndQjC7ryFQcYL2Ut/I7i/IoEOl3eDA2TDqp+FuJIua525DEXwa2s3N8NwOtO1dvJtIIhHXjngWBNpr+AM5meBvOI2I8rCNEYQa2h74ysY3FOTRKlRccKb15IKm7IkRZ7mDOVZpO+6WBqHyr3tSs5a4P6MYSS3KC1fASN9TBuEuOvql7aqUUuoki7kWibgqq9Ee0G9z/ObnsmVmIuIV8etwoZbS3NhPA7l61lx4hzW3U/Mx8DEczlbFCIGjuYfhmiXeAjxAOAu02xQxpaFbE2z4aiKL9weFWS9L16DJ1ANT/439nqr6nSmjhVq8IOoHl/cMSRQECtQCPnsStjJORmYxuoJSMBaWTVeBng7+Wb3Zl2JQjEJsPhd6Th1JaSFZ6uXCaq8XMB5poyRcIysSJfE/CLQP1PkyBOQbcsnMvyILbqs4az+yI1hn4ZWAxEg8ShYw0BZV1/8rGv0ibB4yx5TGDZCp2g1aLN8q/azAUDJviK+MNAuGHcU4UFCf2qxkpowX5mGg0ZZV3yK2+fsxgNbn8VHsanQQHkNfNAfWR8qdTiFxBnokVOZcnT1aq8WQkz3Zclc5TLDGUFsxHYiCKsU2aObPEsGtmPcCcpmxxNEzGvNH1sTtKv46N4IqrqC8KUDZEjynqJCfgi9zpNyfgtsXFHELpH0Hb1vqDxAwliwQ2N /xSbTIUsRXi1YZhZsUGlDIa11Fm+r0R7Hlm9JGTgoYRMRQQzsMA1oAztzJl8ZwuhI3bsMdPG+hopsWaxVmtQ2Zab24CHahWUUP x-ms-exchange-transport-forked: True X-OriginatorOrg: oracle.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: SA2PR10MB4474.namprd10.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: f6def323-a984-46da-09c5-08d8c26f785c X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 27 Jan 2021 02:58:48.8266 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: 4e2c6054-71cb-48f1-bd6c-3a9705aca71b X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: ARBq6dWGyoSWSk7/7ZAHZ+boBbVOxLf3qszRL+ggqmteEmHdJUJHnL6p77hw996Q0cU0hf/VhDUFW+CeiM9vzQ== X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: SN6PR10MB2784 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9876 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 adultscore=0 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 phishscore=0 mlxlogscore=783 bulkscore=0 malwarescore=0 spamscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101270015 X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=6200 definitions=9876 signatures=668683 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 malwarescore=0 adultscore=0 lowpriorityscore=0 mlxlogscore=999 clxscore=1011 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 priorityscore=1501 mlxscore=0 suspectscore=0 impostorscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.12.0-2009150000 definitions=main-2101270015 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:198649 Archived-At: > The eintr manual is for people who aren't programmers. The lispref > manual is a reference manual (for programmers). So adding a link like > that doesn't seem to make much sense. Closing. That makes NO sense to me. Everyone who uses Lisp is still learning it. Anyone who tries to learn Elisp can benefit from the Eintr help. Anyone who uses the Eintr guidance can also benefit from referring to the E= lisp manual for specific info about this or that thing that they're learnin= g or they're interested in. Many, many people will arrive directly at the Elisp manual - by googling, b= eing referred from a website or mailing list, etc. The Elisp manual is MUC= H wider known and referred to by people. An Elisp learner (and others) can _easily_ arrive at the Elisp manual, and = not have the faintest idea that they might be able to benefit from the Eint= r book. Why on earth would we want to not help a reader of either manual know about= the existence of the other? Why do you think that reference books should not refer to user guides? Or = vice versa? I can assure you that serious doc systems have tons of cross-r= eferences between reference material and guide material.