From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Heime via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:26:34 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <_hKt5j_6bUwtEyWyE-e6GenkfdjfDll8AAVkejgxh3gyiYkvovpnhPNs1-ijjzyQaXlAJNSKb917yFQKrejO0q4tTql2vw0iu35n-JbUl8w=@protonmail.com> <834jjynpm9.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Heime Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="32153"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Sep 13 16:28:16 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQql-00082f-Of for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 16:28:15 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQqV-0005eU-9P; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:59 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQqT-0005eM-V4 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:58 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQqS-00010U-Mg for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQqX-0001PI-Ui for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:28:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:28:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.16946152295345 (code B ref 65913); Wed, 13 Sep 2023 14:28:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 13 Sep 2023 14:27:09 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:35530 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQph-0001O8-CB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:09 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4319.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.19]:48451) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgQpe-0001Nb-1N for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 13 Sep 2023 10:27:07 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694615210; x=1694874410; bh=8KGBdBKXu90awiT6NxcoHFrTPYMSoJhi2Z17EyxLVPI=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=t0YDX4JRMwo0/1nQVmZC9MQ5PQ7WjRQYiBMChoNx66nDpOL1RRF8QvZhhT1luvRew RPIke9hD+nhBygCoXXSnP7o0ypmDIVNZ/wfAIHcOOngmsTWHfU/1RI7y8lW/6evQVn Vs6G26kC2mD7vToZz6cf9cNiyO+ebOPj4zRxm9kBGKJ4zZAtkNDa2eg2IFeR+nV2n3 Q3Lbk4pGFaTKJ6+ySwcrz77kCa9Lyxj5wTZruNQxGx0pax9eHq/PC6wKy94AFuOrKI UAnlhh88C/HG49AdS98YoqK/fz61xQlAYxKJm2Lskb+a+8EKb38i+w35S7zwsRTjaR nFjPbQCO0/aHA== In-Reply-To: <834jjynpm9.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:270294 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 1:56 AM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 13:26:51 +0000 > > From: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com > > Cc: Stefan Kangas stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org > >=20 > > Docstrings have become so short at times that reading them is of no pra= ctical > > use. >=20 > Only because you think everything can be learned from scratch by > reading only some more or less random doc strings. That's not how > programming in Emacs Lisp should be learned. There's a large Emacs > Lisp Reference manual, which has a separate section named "Read-Only > Buffers". If you read it when you started working with read-only > buffers, you'd have found the inhibit-read-only variable described > there. Not everthing but at least the minimum level for the description to be useful in a practical sense. Particularly when neither with-help-window= =20 nor help-buffer ever mention that the buffers are read only. If one does not presuppose that the developer knows that the buffer is read only, there is practically no way this figure out using the self documentation. =20 =20 Whilst it is claimed that Emacs is a self-documenting real-time display edi= tor, it hardly ever words that way in practice. =20 > Our recommendation is to read the relevant parts of the ELisp manual > whenever you need for the first time work with a specific aspect of > Emacs Lisp. A decent programmer should be capable of extracting some useful information on using a function directly from its self documenting docstring. Otherwis= e the self documentation is quite pointless from the practical point of view.= =20 Merely saying that this does THIS and that does THAT is certainly deficient= =20 in many ways.