Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Wed, 20 Mar 2002, Alex Schroeder wrote:

> eliz@is.elta.co.il (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
> 
> >> Sometimes, though, I just feel it's a shame that such a
> >> wonderful piece of software doesn't get the publicity which it deserves,
> >> IMO.
> >
> > I agree 100% that we should do better.  I'll try to do something about 
> > that when I have time.
> 
> <plug>That's what I like about the Emacs Wiki.  When I'm not there,
> somebody else will be.  The entry barrier is just one click away -
> anybody can edit the pages.  And once you fix something, there is no
> implicit expectation that you will continue to do so.</plug>

Are you suggesting the same for the Emacs home page?

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Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Alex Schroeder]

eliz@is.elta.co.il (Eli Zaretskii) writes:

>> <plug>That's what I like about the Emacs Wiki.  When I'm not there,
>> somebody else will be.  The entry barrier is just one click away -
>> anybody can edit the pages.  And once you fix something, there is no
>> implicit expectation that you will continue to do so.</plug>
>
> Are you suggesting the same for the Emacs home page?

I would, if I thought it would stand a chance.  I just assume that
either the GNU people running the server don't want to install weird
software (such as the wiki script), or people are affraid of abuse.
But other than that, yes, I think it is a good solution.  It works
fine on the wiki.  It has now 731 pages, and managed to get lots of
hits:

      Hits               Bytes      Visits      PViews      Month

    73,336         559,873,686      11,519      66,214   Jan 2002
    75,276         592,474,181      11,548      71,494   Feb 2002

And still I can remember only one case of abuse and it was easily
corrected by the next person coming along (the old pages are kept for
a certain time).

So I think there are no significant drawbacks and it would fix the
maintainer problem.  I never voluntered for the Emacs page on gnu.org
because that means responsability and work -- on the emacswiki,
however, responsability and work is shared.

If installing a wiki doesn't work for you for the reasons given above,
then perhaps "outsourcing" as much information as possible to the
existing wiki is the way to go.  The main page could just say "Emacs
is an Editor and more.  This site only features the Emacs manual
(link), the elisp manual (link) and the NT Emacs FAQ (link).  Pointers
to CVS, the latest released version, the online FAQ, etc. are
maintained over at the Emacs Wiki (link)."

Ok, enough plugging.  :)

Alex.
-- 
http://www.emacswiki.org/

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Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug
> From: Alex Schroeder <alex@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 11:07:57 +0100
> 
> eliz@is.elta.co.il (Eli Zaretskii) writes:
> 
> >> <plug>That's what I like about the Emacs Wiki.  When I'm not there,
> >> somebody else will be.  The entry barrier is just one click away -
> >> anybody can edit the pages.  And once you fix something, there is no
> >> implicit expectation that you will continue to do so.</plug>
> >
> > Are you suggesting the same for the Emacs home page?
> 
> I would, if I thought it would stand a chance.  I just assume that
> either the GNU people running the server don't want to install weird
> software (such as the wiki script), or people are affraid of abuse.
> But other than that, yes, I think it is a good solution.

Well, in that case, I disagree.

> It works fine on the wiki.  It has now 731 pages, and managed to get
> lots of hits:

The number of hits is not the only criterion of the quality.  Nor is
it certain that the goals of the Emacs page and the wiki are
comparable.

> I never voluntered for the Emacs page on gnu.org because that means
> responsability and work

I'm afraid that without a responsible person (or a group of persons)
who would volunteer to invest the effort, the quality would suffer.  I
don't believe in work without responsibility.  In fact, I believe
that if a person doesn't accept responsibility for her work, she
shouldn't be allowed to do that work.  Maybe I'm too old-fashioned...

Anyway, this is all IMHO; I'm not the head maintainer for Emacs, so
there are others you could try to convince.  I'll happily relinquish
my duties of taking care of the Emacs Web page as far as my time
allows.  I only took it upon myself because no one else volunteered,
and because the grave problems could be fixed by a small amount of
work, an amount I could afford.

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Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Alex Schroeder]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@is.elta.co.il> writes:

>> I would, if I thought it would stand a chance.  I just assume that
>> either the GNU people running the server don't want to install weird
>> software (such as the wiki script), or people are affraid of abuse.
>> But other than that, yes, I think it is a good solution.
>
> Well, in that case, I disagree.

With the arguments mentioned, or because of something else?  Or with
the assumption I made?

>> It works fine on the wiki.  It has now 731 pages, and managed to get
>> lots of hits:
>
> The number of hits is not the only criterion of the quality.  Nor is
> it certain that the goals of the Emacs page and the wiki are
> comparable.

Correct, haha, but that was trivial.  What I WANTED to say is that
even though the pages are publically editable, there is not much
abuse.  I get lots of hits, have lots of pages, and only one incident
that I remember.

> Anyway, this is all IMHO; I'm not the head maintainer for Emacs, so
> there are others you could try to convince.

Heh, "Steter Tropfen höhlt den Stein" (constant water drops will
hollow the stone?).

>  I'll happily relinquish my duties of taking care of the Emacs Web
> page as far as my time allows.  I only took it upon myself because
> no one else volunteered, and because the grave problems could be
> fixed by a small amount of work, an amount I could afford.

Thanks for the time you are investing.

Alex.
-- 
http://www.emacswiki.org/

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Re: Emacs Website. Was: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Newsgroups: gnu.emacs.bug
> From: Alex Schroeder <alex@gnu.org>
> Date: Fri, 22 Mar 2002 14:18:08 +0100
> 
> "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@is.elta.co.il> writes:
> 
> >> I would, if I thought it would stand a chance.  I just assume that
> >> either the GNU people running the server don't want to install weird
> >> software (such as the wiki script), or people are affraid of abuse.
> >> But other than that, yes, I think it is a good solution.
> >
> > Well, in that case, I disagree.
> 
> With the arguments mentioned, or because of something else?  Or with
> the assumption I made?

With the suggestion that it would be a good solution for the Emacs
Web page.

> What I WANTED to say is that even though the pages are publically
> editable, there is not much abuse.

I'm not worried about abuse, I'm worried about quality: the clarity
of the text, even spelling.

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Re: 21.2 release. Was: dabbrev can hang in presence of fields

[Eli Zaretskii]

On Tue, 19 Mar 2002, Glenn Morris wrote:

> On this topic, then IMO it would be nice if there was a simple statement
> somewhere on the http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/ page that said:
> 
> "The latest version of Emacs is: XX.XX (released yyyy/mm/dd)"

I fixed that.

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