From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Heime via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#65913: with-help-window arranges for 'inhibit-read-only' to be set to 't' Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:41:06 +0000 Message-ID: References: <838r9anrmi.fsf@gnu.org> <83v8cem8pu.fsf@gnu.org> <83o7i5nbeq.fsf@gnu.org> <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: Heime Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5192"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: uzibalqa , stefankangas@gmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu Sep 14 12:42:21 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjng-0001DI-Vd for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 12:42:21 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjnN-0001SK-U8; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:42:01 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjnI-0001RU-CJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:56 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:5::43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjnI-0006c0-2l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:56 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjnN-0004bx-Pd for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:42:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Heime Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 65913 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 65913-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B65913.169468808617663 (code B ref 65913); Thu, 14 Sep 2023 10:42:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 65913) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Sep 2023 10:41:26 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:37755 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjmo-0004ap-EB for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:26 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-4324.protonmail.ch ([185.70.43.24]:50641) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1qgjmm-0004ab-2S for 65913@debbugs.gnu.org; Thu, 14 Sep 2023 06:41:24 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1694688071; x=1694947271; bh=Do+hBzguBRGjaI8p2uNrNTeVzf6U/8Nai1SPxZnkXJw=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To:References: Feedback-ID:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID:BIMI-Selector; b=Oz5uu/oOsQC7p+PUejAyHTlbjHKnVagjiFmI6g7StgRa+c1sTqh6iaXftFsmL7pnb eEloEsxtEAR/MZAh+3hc+CMUMfxp9z6tV/yWAHUT38VtdpmCg9lk4Nv0ZMM+uPpBiS mpC0fvPAf0fE/FF8hF5ACwhnuZdU/PSb9649s/cOJ2M9/bPSb0WbgB30tas2xFXvHE d5spKEc1ciNCAQLmlYUWgV4qTlmJTc/JC6U+0qeBoBD/1bCNC4Vame5zxdRld46sSq NSSCA4odXxcliYmugi5JP0QtAlOLy1XjvERHdM24aOOvT+V9Z6VM3pzcGZvZeOuk9U yVtpEHBMWaECw== In-Reply-To: <83fs3hmk33.fsf@gnu.org> Feedback-ID: 57735886:user:proton X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:270408 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Thursday, September 14th, 2023 at 4:53 PM, Eli Zaretskii = wrote: > > Date: Wed, 13 Sep 2023 19:16:52 +0000 > > From: uzibalqa uzibalqa@proton.me > > Cc: Heime heimeborgia@protonmail.com, 65913@debbugs.gnu.org, stefankang= as@gmail.com > >=20 > > The purpose of the docstring should be expanded. And if using the manua= l > > is required, please provide that information from the self documentatio= n. >=20 >=20 > We do that when needed, but not in this case. There's no reason to > mention inhibit-read-only when we document with-help-window, because > with-help-window is not about read-only buffers. >=20 > > I disagree with the notion that working with emacs should be hard. >=20 >=20 > So do we. But this issue has nothing to do with how hard it is to > work with Emacs. You simply looked for the information you were after > in the wrong place, when the right place should have been pretty > obvious for someone who writes Lisp programs: the ELisp manual. Stefan mentioned a project to have the docstring communicate with the manua= l so that finding the information will not be too laborious. =20 > > With most people I communicate with, it is generally agreed that > > using the language is hard. It is the solution that I disagree > > with. Because the solution that I am usually given is to endure the > > time it takes for everyone to learn it. >=20 >=20 > The solution you were suggested was to look for information about > read-only buffers where read-only buffers are described, either in the > ELisp manual or in the doc string of the command which toggles the > read-only state of the buffer. The difficulty is that while something is discussion theoretically, the actual function gives some conveniences that might not be so apparent. As was the case for with-help-window. Once such conveniences are understood, things are good. =20 > In general, there's no need to mention in each and every doc string > that to learn about some subject you should read the manual where that > subject is described. This is trivial, and having to repeat that > everywhere will just bloat Emacs for no good reason. Consulting the > documentation is one of the first lessons that each Emacs user learns, > and resisting that lesson is not recommended. There could be some manual or metadata that could provide rapid search and association capabilities to find relevant information and avoid much manual labour.