From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Xah Lee" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#4367: 23.1; unable to view this png image Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:27:13 -0700 Message-ID: References: Reply-To: Xah Lee , 4367@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="utf-8"; reply-type=original Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1253340193 12617 80.91.229.12 (19 Sep 2009 06:03:13 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 06:03:13 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 4367@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: "Stefan Monnier" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 19 08:03:06 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Mot2H-0004ob-Lr for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 08:03:05 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:58899 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Mot2G-0006u6-Os for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:03:04 -0400 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MojQE-0003oI-8O for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:47:10 -0400 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1MojQ9-0003m0-Mt for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:47:10 -0400 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=42736 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1MojQ9-0003lh-GL for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:47:05 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:40604) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1MojQ8-0005YT-Tz for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:47:05 -0400 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8IJl28G018258; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:47:02 -0700 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Submit) id n8IJZ4Sa016470; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:35:04 -0700 Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:35:04 -0700 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Xah Lee" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs 2Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:35:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 4367 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 4367-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B4367.125330204615594 (code B ref 4367); Fri, 18 Sep 2009 19:35:04 +0000 Original-Received: (at 4367) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 18 Sep 2009 19:27:26 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from mout.perfora.net (mout.perfora.net [74.208.4.194]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.14.3/8.14.3/Debian-5) with ESMTP id n8IJROj9015591 for <4367@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 12:27:26 -0700 Original-Received: from xahPC (c-76-102-12-87.hsd1.ca.comcast.net [76.102.12.87]) by mrelay.perfora.net (node=mrus1) with ESMTP (Nemesis) id 0MKpCa-1Moj710W7X-000dJz; Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:27:24 -0400 In-Reply-To: X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Windows Mail 6.0.6002.18005 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.0.6002.18005 X-Provags-ID: V01U2FsdGVkX1/kwqkBqw1s1Kf6uDoUsUpJFN16AqhoeDLc8aW WPnv4t3Z7lFBClMwjysPbF3OOx9Kec+foGpcEjythtenkCYjV2 iALxqxQ2M83eYYlr6KvVA== X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by rzlab.ucr.edu id n8IJl28G018258 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 2) Resent-Date: Fri, 18 Sep 2009 15:47:10 -0400 X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 19 Sep 2009 02:02:52 -0400 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:31283 Archived-At: Adding a bit argument about why i think it is critical for emacs to be ab= le=20 to open image files out of the box. =E2=80=A2 viewing image files right inside emacs is very convenient, and = a common=20 operation. For example, for web developers, it is often needed to quickly= =20 see the image files, either in dired or with M-x ffap in inline images. W= eb=20 app programers are today perhaps more than 50% of professional programers= =20 (or some large percentage.) =E2=80=A2 I disagree about the argument that including DLL is too much wo= rk or=20 problematic. For example, all popularly used emacs distros (Lennarts=20 EmacsW32, Aquaemacs Mac, Carbon Emacs), all support viewing images out of= =20 the box. They mostly have just 1 core developer. If they can do it, GNU=20 emacs with its tens of developers certainly can manage. =E2=80=A2 perhaps there's licensing problem to include image DLL in GNU E= macs. If=20 i'm correct, this might be because things bundled with GNU Emacs require=20 signed copyright transfer agreement due to FSF's policy, or some complexi= ty=20 related to this. If so, i do think this is a problem that harms GNU Emacs= .=20 Again, if the issue of bundling image DLL for emacs does have something t= o=20 do with licensing, then perhaps this licensing issue needs to be=20 reconsidered. I'm aware this is a controversial and has been debated for=20 long. I do not wish to suggest FSf people to re-exam old policies, but if= =20 this particular problem of not able to open image files in emacs out of t= he=20 box is related to this, thus i mentions this. =E2=80=A2 Considered from user point of view... if emacs does support vie= wing=20 images, and does support Windows, then it must support it out of the box.= =20 For example, compare other successful Open Source projects, e.g. FireFox.= =20 They don't say: oh, including DLL is a problem, go use your OS's file=20 management, or go follow these install and compile instruction on how to = get=20 it to work. =E2=80=A2 Consider the related issue of emacs not supporting editing PHP = or Visual=20 Basic code. Consider this: average programer, hear that emacs is a great=20 editor, she download it, and finds out it simply doesn't support 2 of the= =20 MOST popular languages. This alienates a big chuck of potential users. Yes, FSF has a philosophy in supporting only Free Software. However,=20 consider the user point of view again. In the 1980s and 1990s, where perh= aps=20 more than 50% of programers uses emacs. In those era, emacs works out of = the=20 box for what they need to do. This quality, helped spread GNU and FSF's=20 philosophies. But, the computing landscape has changed a lot in the past = 20=20 years, and emacs does not work out of the box for most professional=20 programer's needs today. For whatever philosophical or political problems= =20 today to include Visual Basic, this situation is a problem for emacs. If=20 emacs still have a lot users, then it isn't a problem, but i think a=20 verifiable fact is that, emacs's users among professional programers has=20 reduced to something like 1%. (=E2=80=9Cprofessional programers=E2=80=9D = is here defined as=20 those who's main income are from programing or sys admin.) =E2=80=A2 The Visual Basic language is not philosophically in sync with F= SF, but the=20 Visual Basic mode is. So, whether to bundle the Visual Basic mode shouldn= 't=20 be a problem if FSF is willing to consider effective ways to spread its=20 philosophy by making emacs more usable for majority of professional=20 programers on a practical basis. Sorry if this report is tangential or perhaps not useful at all. But i tr= ied=20 to detail this specific problem of not able to open image files in emacs = on=20 Windows with reasons i think are pertinent that are mentioned by develope= rs. Xah =E2=88=91 http://xahlee.org/ =E2=98=84