From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#61325: 30.0.50; Jokes in GNUS manual Date: Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87ttzy7pg1.fsf@localhost> <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4534"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: yantar92@posteo.net, 61325@debbugs.gnu.org To: Po Lu Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Feb 08 05:33:19 2023 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc90-0000vf-W5 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 08 Feb 2023 05:33:19 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1] helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc8n-0008Dx-45; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:33:05 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc8k-0008Dj-EC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:33:02 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc8k-0001HD-6c for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:33:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc8j-0000Mt-VJ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:33:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:33:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 61325 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 61325-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B61325.16758307231340 (code B ref 61325); Wed, 08 Feb 2023 04:33:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 61325) by debbugs.gnu.org; 8 Feb 2023 04:32:03 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:54483 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7m-0000LY-Ip for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:32:03 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:46856) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7k-0000L3-AB for 61325@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:32:01 -0500 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7d-0000uc-RP; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=lAzzkx7pLs6ArbaZzeGPsYPJVGNMuUcxWkempVT37xA=; b=bPrasSTPDcZp fbJK8TgZFM4+9if0a4Ajpl+9UnbSskOFcvmPb+EiEfSK2KDtKW1O5zk1J0eZA3/ntXbhgHsWQfGUr C0U/5tk0Zgri5GybmmpgMZ/Kv75y3WD/MPPchMGsASk4dZ1B1vdV81Sdi8Il7AmIw2k4dWTYWH1DD 9Fxoy3V2S1GwuyeWe1NQWoYNgtgYudusaddATS70GwGRirXI13ZM1TErxbQUHT8CUQgXOrwiPMnob 91GzDHCiiHPvjr9/8IBI/3nvEQOY3sz8ttFtSDjDi8anVOiae0a0liQcm0tzAYxaJkFw3oet7ssYw 6ln7tgAo9LruPxVAF474yA==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1pPc7d-00024K-Hr; Tue, 07 Feb 2023 23:31:53 -0500 In-Reply-To: <87wn4u6xj0.fsf@yahoo.com> (bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:255102 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > 3.15 Exiting Gnus has > > > > Note: > > > > Miss Lisa Cannifax, while sitting in English class, felt her feet > > go numbly heavy and herself fall into a hazy trance as the boy > > sitting behind her drew repeated lines with his pencil across the > > back of her plastic chair. > > > > I am not sure if it is a joke. I only feel confused about what > > information this note is trying to convey. Also, at least one other user > > find this section insulting. I can't see what in this a reader might consider insulting. I can't see what in this a reader might consider funny. I can't make sense of it at all. Would someone who understands it please explain the joke? > > ‘z’ > > Suspend Gnus (‘gnus-group-suspend’). This doesn’t really exit > > Gnus, but it kills all buffers except the Group buffer. I’m not > > sure why this is a gain, but then who am I to judge? > > > > is implying what? Is it just a joke? Or is it saying that the function > > is useless? Discouraged? I am confused. I find it disparaging to Gnus itself. If we think some detail of Gnus is somehow problematical, the manual is the wrong place to say so. Rather, Gnus developers should take up the issue and decide whether this behavior is useful or not. If useful, explain why; if not, perhaps delete it. > > If you read lots and lots of groups, it might be convenient to group > > them hierarchically according to topics. You put your Emacs groups over > > here, your sex groups over there, and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. You can > > even group the Emacs sex groups as a sub-topic to either the Emacs > > groups or the sex groups—or both! Go wild! This seems to be trying to create humor by simply referring to sex. I "get the joke," but it doesn't seem to be very funny. This part and the rest (what, two groups or so?) > > you put in some misc section that you never bother with anyway. stereotypes the users and mocks them. That is likely to make the readers feel attacked. We owe no special consideration to people who try to impose their unrelated hgypersensitivities on others. They are demanding power which nobody should have. However, jokes that make people feel mocked _because they use Gnus_ are unfriendly to our users. We should remove those. > > Other people use “kill files”, but we here at Gnus Towers like scoring > > better than killing, so we’d rather switch than fight. They do > > something completely different as well, so sit up straight and pay > > attention! > > > > For me, this paragraph is meaningless. For US users, it is some kind of > > word play around sexual behavior, I guess. At least some users find "we > > .. like scoring better than killing" uncomfortable. I object jokes that > > make people feel uncomfortable. > > > > Also, I fail to understand what "kill files" really refers to here. Also > > some USA-specific context? Or is it Emacs killing concept? Deleting > > files on file system? > Gnus is a news reader. Naturally, the indended audience of the jokes in > its manual are those who read net news. That's not a kind attitude toward the reader. Since you don't know what a > kill or a (Gnus-specific) score file is, you can disregard that > paragraph. That is very unkind to the reader. Users don't enjoy feeling puzzled about important parts of the subject matter. The manual should _help_ users understand the subject matter -- that's its purpose. I presume the Gnus manual explains what a kill file is, for readers who do not know. If not, we should add that. Then this joke -- if it is worth keeping -- should have a cross reference to that explanation. So, IS this joke worth keeping? Although I am an American, I don't get the joke at all. It seems to be more smirking than funny. Can anyone explain the intended meaning? If that is more funny than the actual wording, maybe we could change the wording to be clear. But if we don't do that, deleting the joke could be better. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)