From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#22564: Fundamental mode isn't fundamental enough. Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 18:49:15 -0400 Message-ID: References: <20160205125559.GC7727@acm.fritz.box> <20160205215301.GG7727@acm.fritz.box> <87ee1isi8r.fsf@gnus.org> <83h7697p7b.fsf@gnu.org> <83h7664kmg.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="5792"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rgm@gnu.org, johnw@gnu.org, 22564@debbugs.gnu.org, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, acm@muc.de, larsi@gnus.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Thu May 05 00:50:28 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNpC-0001IG-VU for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Thu, 05 May 2022 00:50:27 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:53868 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNpB-0006NS-KS for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:50:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:50570) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNop-0006NB-0Q for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:50:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:50031) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNoo-0003Zl-2C for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:50:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNoo-0001OW-08 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:50:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 04 May 2022 22:50:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 22564 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 22564-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B22564.16517045655293 (code B ref 22564); Wed, 04 May 2022 22:50:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 22564) by debbugs.gnu.org; 4 May 2022 22:49:25 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:43924 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNoD-0001NJ-CP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:49:25 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:56982) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNoB-0001N7-Ex for 22564@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:49:24 -0400 Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::e]:39736) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNo5-0003QJ-LH; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:49:17 -0400 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=r/TWfEd8T7McFyZfVGTksOCZIwf0aYxW+zUdWC0n8rM=; b=I0pK9owTXW8a JsV9gENwb4xIapx1fswlu2wdpSpe4onGq0RkpfOEDb/Nw9letSY1LjHqG5GwNM3KFD3il6w4XwfE7 qYqYf4uz76ISD6rcDWlrQFHx/UMiU6bEjhN6SFqvp77mD4eJliGgdlNEgaEw9va+V04KPigr8Kk6x VeHRBlhxl2nJLaXHdcSdkv0uQ94rXvtQhMP3c2vLv7YIWiwphfLeB0Yq43KvfUM6DTwV8le+4H8N4 RwOQsqWhF1X1Dwrt3Z60U1huop1ZVIB5XGiEyZVCjf3kiG3tLGn3NIOG7sK0polxfxIpjsB8Dkfj1 EfkJwZXrWW72Ii30AkPiMA==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nmNo3-0007Kw-Du; Wed, 04 May 2022 18:49:15 -0400 In-Reply-To: <83h7664kmg.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Tue, 03 May 2022 20:00:07 +0300) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:231396 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > But what does Electric Indent mode it do in modes that DON'T customize it? > That is only important to document if enough important major modes > don't customize it. Fundamental mode is one -- and that's enough. It is the default mode if you visit a file whose name has no special extension. For instance, `foo'. What DOES Electric Indent mode do in Fundamental mode? Nothing? I am starting to think that is what it does. > Sorry, I disagree that Fundamental mode is important. Its being the > default doesn't mean users frequently see it, not at all. I do. And not for any special reason. If I want to put some notes in a file, I give it a simple name. I don't add an extension just to get some other mode. (Do you?) I find that Fundamental mode is fine. > The electric characters normally include the newline, but can also > include other characters as needed by the major mode; see > `electric-indent-chars' for the actual list. Adding that would be useful, but it isn't enough because it doesn't answer that crucial question. If someone tells me the answer, I will document it. > > How about adding, "Typically the major mode controls what reindenting does."? > I'm sorry, I don't think I understand how saying that would help. > Unless a person knows "what reindenting does" (or even what is > "reindenting"), this leaves the issue as obscure as it was before. The Emacs Manual does not define "reindenting". It is not exactly synonymous with "indenting", so I think this needs clarification in the manual itself. Then the doc string of Electric Indent mode could refer to the appropriate node in the Emacs Manual. I think reindenting means this: In major modes where indenting a line idempotently adjusts its indentation to what is called for by the line's contents and context, "reindenting" the line is the same as indenting it. In other situations, the concept of "reindenting" is not really applicable, so commands that should "reindent" actually do nothing or have some other definion. Is this entirely correct? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)