From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#53316: 28.0.91; Missing Transient manual in Emacs Date: Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:34:39 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87o845s4xv.fsf@gnus.org> <87iltgcbqx.fsf@bernoul.li> <87tuczdcqo.fsf@bernoul.li> <6ar182selo.fsf@fencepost.gnu.org> <83r182105v.fsf@gnu.org> <83k0drz1jv.fsf@gnu.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=Utf-8 Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="20902"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: rgm@gnu.org, larsi@gnus.org, jonas@bernoul.li, p.stephani2@gmail.com, 53316@debbugs.gnu.org To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Feb 21 05:35:34 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0Q8-0005Bm-Fm for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 21 Feb 2022 05:35:32 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:35756 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0Q7-0005Oh-3m for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:35:31 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:52732) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0Pf-0005Mu-4A for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:35:10 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:40598) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0Pe-0004Bv-Fw for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:35:02 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0Pe-0003wZ-06 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:35:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Richard Stallman Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2022 04:35:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 53316 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 53316-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B53316.164541808815134 (code B ref 53316); Mon, 21 Feb 2022 04:35:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 53316) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Feb 2022 04:34:48 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:34495 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0PP-0003w2-Lf for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:34:47 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:45848) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0PO-0003vq-56 for 53316@debbugs.gnu.org; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:34:46 -0500 Original-Received: from [2001:470:142:3::e] (port=42402 helo=fencepost.gnu.org) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0PI-00046l-5n; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:34:40 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gnu.org; s=fencepost-gnu-org; h=Date:References:Subject:In-Reply-To:To:From: mime-version; bh=f37ZXyka9b2hlld690rjUeFoBeMq+QHz0xGHCzxV/A8=; b=RBqmbfrkxHhy UBAVhl56odzrITwNC2GaS8UOyx2TlP1UorAwahMqqlpE+MzwFzQ3VHuci4F+VEa8kmHMdkcHU28+l +BfqfSfAIFrLVDKv/aVt4m6Tm53/rD4jr8ftZGlDivkQqQ3yleqxN2Xlq9z9gAA4QjLmiMq+sMxok jDSz3zTY2zYRKIwbhW9tRQh4yxCegThbJ+9Nd8NZbwRxMQjX/4/A0dJkEQ0RrZ4N5ZXinUb/r+LNy pl7/A0apkrRHzakcdeD/JdDzluNxd2EZVj0Zk2h1UAtuXv9gGOZsB+6DOBZ5dhLBXIOlzXrHSSoq1 xZs0RDvRfreONUWFs4pBfQ==; Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nM0PH-0008IM-ST; Sun, 20 Feb 2022 23:34:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: <83k0drz1jv.fsf@gnu.org> (message from Eli Zaretskii on Sat, 19 Feb 2022 10:46:28 +0200) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:227304 Archived-At: [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The original sources for this manual are in Org, but the program that > produces Texinfo from the Org original has problems that need to be > resolved before we can include the Org sources in the Emacs release > tarball. The Org sources themselves also have several issues. Thanks. Now I understand the problem. > The current Texinfo sources in the repository were heavily edited to > solve many problems in the original version converted from Org to > Texinfo, and that is how we intend to distribute that in Emacs 28.1. That's not a solution. To distribute a compiled form of anything without its real source code would violate our principles. Furthermore, anyone who redistributes that Emacs release would likewise be distributing a compiled form of this manual without its real source code -- and since perse would not be the copyright holder, that would violate the license. We must not do that. What could we do instead? We could distribute this package without its manual. That would be a practical problem, but not a disaster. It is a reasonable option. But we have other options too. Here are some ideas. * Delete Transient from the Emacs 28 release. People can get it from the separately released Org mode. * Fork the manual, making a version for which the Texinfo form is the real source that we edit. That version can be included in Emacs 28. This forkage would be a practical problem, but not a disaster. * Write a converter to generate that manual's Org-format source from the Texinfo form. Then the Texinfo form will be the real source code, and we can include it both in Emacs and in the Org release. This way, there will be no practical problem, only the inconvenience of editing that manual in Texinfo rather than some other source format. I suspect that automatically converting Org format to Texinfo format gives bad Texinfo output. Texinfo has many different markup constructs to make visual distinctions in the text. Consider @samp, @code, @kbd, @dfn, @emph, @var. @file, @url, and more. How does Org format express those distinctions? I fear the answer is, "It doesn't." I would be glad to find that that problem has been fixed. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)