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* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
@ 2021-11-29  3:08 Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29  9:30 ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 17:09 ` bug#52173: `ś' " Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tor Kringeland @ 2021-11-29  3:08 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: 52173

`ś' is a character used in /e.g./ Polish.  Currently `C-x 8 ' s' is not
bound.  Could this be added (along with the capitalized variant)?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29  3:08 bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8' Tor Kringeland
@ 2021-11-29  9:30 ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 13:55   ` Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29 17:09 ` bug#52173: `ś' " Juri Linkov
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29  9:30 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tor Kringeland; +Cc: 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 04:08:54 +0100, Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no> said:

    Tor> `ś' is a character used in /e.g./ Polish.  Currently `C-x 8 ' s' is not
    Tor> bound.  Could this be added (along with the capitalized variant)?

I think you'd be better off using one of the two Polish input methods,
theyʼre far more ergonomic than C-x 8

If youʼre already using a different input method, you can extend it
with bindings for the Polish characters youʼre interested in, eg

(with-temp-buffer
  (activate-input-method "latin-prefix") ;; the input method has to be triggered for `quail-package-alist' to be non-nil
  (let ((quail-current-package (assoc "latin-prefix" quail-package-alist)))
   (quail-define-rules ((append . t))
                       ("'s" ?ś))))

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29  9:30 ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 13:55   ` Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
  2021-12-03 16:44     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tor Kringeland @ 2021-11-29 13:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: 52173

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1586 bytes --]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 04:08:54 +0100, Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no> said:
>
>     Tor> `ś' is a character used in /e.g./ Polish.  Currently `C-x 8 ' s' is not
>     Tor> bound.  Could this be added (along with the capitalized variant)?
>
> I think you'd be better off using one of the two Polish input methods,
> theyʼre far more ergonomic than C-x 8
>
> If youʼre already using a different input method, you can extend it
> with bindings for the Polish characters youʼre interested in, eg
>
> (with-temp-buffer
>   (activate-input-method "latin-prefix") ;; the input method has to be triggered for `quail-package-alist' to be non-nil
>   (let ((quail-current-package (assoc "latin-prefix" quail-package-alist)))
>    (quail-define-rules ((append . t))
>                        ("'s" ?ś))))
>
> Robert
> -- 

Thanks for the tip.

But when I'm writing with another input method, there comes up (not so
often) the need to write some Polish name like Skowroński (also nothing
for `C-x 8 ' n') or Kieślowski and it might be quicker to have the
key-binding rather than changing the input method (or extending it for
all the characters).  The same happens for other languages, like Czech,
where if you're writing a name with a `ž' it'd be faster to do something
like `C-x 8 v e' than to switch to a Czech input method.

I'm attaching a patch for `C-x 8' to include with Polish characters.
It's missing `ż', for which I cannot of a good key-binding for (`C-x 8 .'
is taken).  Any ideas?


[-- Attachment #2: Polish-characters-C-x_8.patch --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1676 bytes --]

From 0cdec3270bec60284f19d3b852b8e19fb99a48f4 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:49:08 +0100
Subject: [PATCH] Add support for some Polish characters with `C-x 8'

* lisp/international/iso-transl.el: Add support for some Polish
characters.
---
 lisp/international/iso-transl.el | 12 ++++++++++++
 1 file changed, 12 insertions(+)

diff --git a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el
index 2c7da2b7cd..c59a25efd3 100644
--- a/lisp/international/iso-transl.el
+++ b/lisp/international/iso-transl.el
@@ -86,23 +86,33 @@
     ("\"y"  . [?ÿ])
     ("''"   . [?´])
     ("'A"   . [?Á])
+    ("'C"   . [?Ć])
     ("'E"   . [?É])
     ("'I"   . [?Í])
+    ("'N"   . [?Ń])
     ("'O"   . [?Ó])
+    ("'S"   . [?Ś])
     ("'U"   . [?Ú])
     ("'Y"   . [?Ý])
+    ("'Z"   . [?Ź])
     ("'a"   . [?á])
+    ("'c"   . [?ć])
     ("'e"   . [?é])
     ("'i"   . [?í])
+    ("'n"   . [?ń])
     ("'o"   . [?ó])
+    ("'s"   . [?ś])
     ("'u"   . [?ú])
     ("'y"   . [?ý])
+    ("'z"   . [?ź])
     ("*$"   . [?¤])
     ("$"    . [?¤])
     ("*+"   . [?±])
     ("+"    . [?±])
     (",,"   . [?¸])
+    (",A"   . [?Ą])
     (",C"   . [?Ç])
+    (",a"   . [?ą])
     (",c"   . [?ç])
     ("*-"   . [?­])
     ("-"    . [?­])
@@ -110,9 +120,11 @@
     ("."    . [?·])
     ("//"   . [?÷])
     ("/A"   . [?Å])
+    ("/L"   . [?Ł])
     ("/E"   . [?Æ])
     ("/O"   . [?Ø])
     ("/a"   . [?å])
+    ("/l"   . [?ł])
     ("/e"   . [?æ])
     ("/o"   . [?ø])
     ("1/2"  . [?½])
-- 
2.34.1


^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 13:55   ` Tor Kringeland
@ 2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 14:24       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-11-29 15:55       ` André A. Gomes
  2021-12-03 16:44     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29 14:06 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tor Kringeland; +Cc: 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 14:55:23 +0100, Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no> said:

    Tor> But when I'm writing with another input method, there comes up (not so
    Tor> often) the need to write some Polish name like Skowroński (also nothing
    Tor> for `C-x 8 ' n') or Kieślowski and it might be quicker to have the
    Tor> key-binding rather than changing the input method (or extending it for
    Tor> all the characters).  The same happens for other languages, like Czech,
    Tor> where if you're writing a name with a `ž' it'd be faster to do something
    Tor> like `C-x 8 v e' than to switch to a Czech input method.

    Tor> I'm attaching a patch for `C-x 8' to include with Polish characters.
    Tor> It's missing `ż', for which I cannot of a good key-binding for (`C-x 8 .'
    Tor> is taken).  Any ideas?

There are hundreds of characters that you could add to C-x 8, thereʼs
nothing particularly special about Polish and Czech: this is why input
methods exist. What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 14:24       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-11-29 14:37         ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 15:55       ` André A. Gomes
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-11-29 14:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

> There are hundreds of characters that you could add to C-x 8, thereʼs
> nothing particularly special about Polish and Czech: this is why input
> methods exist. What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.

But adding more things to `C-x 8' isn't a bad idea, either.  Basically,
you could make the same argument for all the `C-x 8' things, but we have
that keymap because it's convenient for people that doesn't use those
diacritics normally.

Adding `C-x 8 ' s` for instance, wouldn't get in the way of anything
else, but would be helpful for those that have to write the
occasional...  er...  what is it?  An s with a caron?  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:24       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-11-29 14:37         ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 14:43           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29 14:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:24:09 +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:

    Lars> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >> There are hundreds of characters that you could add to C-x 8, thereʼs
    >> nothing particularly special about Polish and Czech: this is why input
    >> methods exist. What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
    >> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.

    Lars> But adding more things to `C-x 8' isn't a bad idea, either.  Basically,
    Lars> you could make the same argument for all the `C-x 8' things, but we have
    Lars> that keymap because it's convenient for people that doesn't use those
    Lars> diacritics normally.

Except C-x 8 is nominally based on ISO 10646, so thereʼs some kind of
underlying logic to the characters it supports.

    Lars> Adding `C-x 8 ' s` for instance, wouldn't get in the way of anything
    Lars> else, but would be helpful for those that have to write the
    Lars> occasional...  er...  what is it?  An s with a caron?  

s with acute. But there are input methods where 's => s with cedilla
(eg Romanian), so what's the logic for preferring Polish, especially
when we already have Polish/Czech/Romanian/latin-n methods etc for all
these characters?

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:37         ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 14:43           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-11-29 14:49             ` Robert Pluim
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-11-29 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

> Except C-x 8 is nominally based on ISO 10646, so thereʼs some kind of
> underlying logic to the characters it supports.

In what way it it based on Unicode?

>     Lars> Adding `C-x 8 ' s` for instance, wouldn't get in the way of anything
>     Lars> else, but would be helpful for those that have to write the
>     Lars> occasional...  er...  what is it?  An s with a caron?  
>
> s with acute. But there are input methods where 's => s with cedilla
> (eg Romanian), so what's the logic for preferring Polish, especially
> when we already have Polish/Czech/Romanian/latin-n methods etc for all
> these characters?

I wasn't aware that there was any kind of logic to the `C-x 8' map
except "well, that's nice".  😀

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:43           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-11-29 14:49             ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 18:11               ` Tor Kringeland
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29 14:49 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:43:34 +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:

    Lars> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >> Except C-x 8 is nominally based on ISO 10646, so thereʼs some kind of
    >> underlying logic to the characters it supports.

    Lars> In what way it it based on Unicode?

Sorry, ISO 8859-1, not 10646

    Lars> Adding `C-x 8 ' s` for instance, wouldn't get in the way of anything
    Lars> else, but would be helpful for those that have to write the
    Lars> occasional...  er...  what is it?  An s with a caron?  
    >> 
    >> s with acute. But there are input methods where 's => s with cedilla
    >> (eg Romanian), so what's the logic for preferring Polish, especially
    >> when we already have Polish/Czech/Romanian/latin-n methods etc for all
    >> these characters?

    Lars> I wasn't aware that there was any kind of logic to the `C-x 8' map
    Lars> except "well, that's nice".  😀

:-)

Looking again at iso-transl.el, perhaps we could define a 'Polish' and
'Czech' language. But again this all duplicates existing
infrastructure in input methods.

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 14:24       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-11-29 15:55       ` André A. Gomes
  2021-11-29 16:52         ` Robert Pluim
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: André A. Gomes @ 2021-11-29 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

> What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.

I agree.  It should be easier to go from any 2 input methods defined by
quail.

I will add it to my todo.


-- 
André A. Gomes
"Free Thought, Free World"





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 15:55       ` André A. Gomes
@ 2021-11-29 16:52         ` Robert Pluim
  2021-11-29 17:03           ` André A. Gomes
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: André A. Gomes; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:55:16 +0000, André A. Gomes <andremegafone@gmail.com> said:

    André> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >> What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
    >> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.

    André> I agree.  It should be easier to go from any 2 input methods defined by
    André> quail.

    André> I will add it to my todo.

A rough cut. Of course this should probably be part of `toggle-input-method'.

diff --git a/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el b/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
index b922f192a9..4f385d5b79 100644
--- a/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
+++ b/lisp/international/mule-cmds.el
@@ -1553,6 +1553,35 @@ set-input-method
 (defvar toggle-input-method-active nil
   "Non-nil inside `toggle-input-method'.")
 
+(if dump-mode
+    (load "emacs-lisp/ring")
+  (require 'ring))
+(defvar input-method-ring nil)
+(defun update-input-method-ring (variable value)
+  (when (length> value 0)
+    (dolist (im value)
+      (when (not (assoc (symbol-name im) input-method-alist))
+        (error "%S is not a known input method" im)))
+    (setq input-method-ring (ring-convert-sequence-to-ring value)))
+    (set-default variable value))
+
+(defcustom input-method-list nil
+  "List of input methods to cycle through with `cycle-input-method'."
+  :type '(choice (const nil)
+                 (repeat :tag "List of input methods"
+                         (symbol :tag "Input method")))
+  :group 'mule
+  :set #'update-input-method-ring
+  :version "29.1")
+
+(defun cycle-input-method ()
+  "Cycle through `input-method-ring'."
+  (interactive)
+  (if (and current-input-method
+           (ring-member input-method-ring (intern current-input-method)))
+      (activate-input-method (ring-next input-method-ring (intern current-input-method) ))
+    (activate-input-method (ring-ref input-method-ring 0))))
+
 (defun toggle-input-method (&optional arg interactive)
   "Enable or disable multilingual text input method for the current buffer.
 Only one input method can be enabled at any time in a given buffer.

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply related	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 16:52         ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 17:03           ` André A. Gomes
  2021-11-29 17:19             ` Robert Pluim
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: André A. Gomes @ 2021-11-29 17:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:55:16 +0000, André A. Gomes <andremegafone@gmail.com> said:
>
>     André> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>     >> What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
>     >> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.
>
>     André> I agree.  It should be easier to go from any 2 input methods defined by
>     André> quail.
>
>     André> I will add it to my todo.
>
> A rough cut. Of course this should probably be part of `toggle-input-method'.

Am I right in thinking that the ring doesn't cycle through the state of
having no IM selected?  IMO, `cycle-input-method' should deprecate
`toggle-input-method', since the latter is the same as the former when
what you call `input-method-list' has one element.


-- 
André A. Gomes
"Free Thought, Free World"





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29  3:08 bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8' Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29  9:30 ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 17:09 ` Juri Linkov
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2021-11-29 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tor Kringeland; +Cc: 52173

> `ś' is a character used in /e.g./ Polish.  Currently `C-x 8 ' s' is not
> bound.  Could this be added (along with the capitalized variant)?

Whereas adding this to `C-x 8 ' s' would be fine, an existing
alternative is to type `C-x \ ' s' after selecting the
input method `compose'.

Also cycling input methods proposed by Robert would be nice -
desktop/window managers support cycling by typing
the keyboard-layout switching key several times
when 3 or more layouts are selected.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 17:03           ` André A. Gomes
@ 2021-11-29 17:19             ` Robert Pluim
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2021-11-29 17:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: André A. Gomes; +Cc: Tor Kringeland, 52173

>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 17:03:17 +0000, André A. Gomes <andremegafone@gmail.com> said:

    André> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:55:16 +0000, André A. Gomes <andremegafone@gmail.com> said:
    >> 
    André> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    >> >> What might be more useful is an input-method ring, so
    >> >> you could quickly switch between 2 or more input methods.
    >> 
    André> I agree.  It should be easier to go from any 2 input methods defined by
    André> quail.
    >> 
    André> I will add it to my todo.
    >> 
    >> A rough cut. Of course this should probably be part of `toggle-input-method'.

    André> Am I right in thinking that the ring doesn't cycle through the state of
    André> having no IM selected?  IMO, `cycle-input-method' should deprecate
    André> `toggle-input-method', since the latter is the same as the former when
    André> what you call `input-method-list' has one element.

Yes, thatʼs what it does.

It should probably have a 'nil' element in there as well. Iʼm not sure
about deprecating `toggle-input-method', I was thinking more along the
lines of "C-- C-\" meaning "cycle". 

Robert
-- 





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 14:49             ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-11-29 18:11               ` Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29 18:44                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tor Kringeland @ 2021-11-29 18:11 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Robert Pluim, Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: 52173

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2021 15:43:34 +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> said:
>
>     Lars> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>     >> Except C-x 8 is nominally based on ISO 10646, so thereʼs some kind of
>     >> underlying logic to the characters it supports.
>
>     Lars> In what way it it based on Unicode?
>
> Sorry, ISO 8859-1, not 10646
>
>     Lars> Adding `C-x 8 ' s` for instance, wouldn't get in the way of anything
>     Lars> else, but would be helpful for those that have to write the
>     Lars> occasional...  er...  what is it?  An s with a caron?  
>     >> 
>     >> s with acute. But there are input methods where 's => s with cedilla
>     >> (eg Romanian), so what's the logic for preferring Polish, especially
>     >> when we already have Polish/Czech/Romanian/latin-n methods etc for all
>     >> these characters?
>
>     Lars> I wasn't aware that there was any kind of logic to the `C-x 8' map
>     Lars> except "well, that's nice".  😀
>
> :-)
>
> Looking again at iso-transl.el, perhaps we could define a 'Polish' and
> 'Czech' language. But again this all duplicates existing
> infrastructure in input methods.
>
> Robert
> -- 

I think the usage area of having commands like `C-x 8 ' s' is that it's
intuitive (it's what you expect given the behavior of similar
key-bindings and how the command looks "visually", which gives this
merit; with cedilla `C-x 8 , s' makes more sense) and it does not
require you to be aware of the specific input method.  For example, you
could quickly "Skowroński" correctly (with the diacritical mark, and not
without, which is often the "compromise" --- I've been in this situation
several times with Emacs) without being aware that the character is used
in Polish.  Names like these are common to write in English now, which
is why I think `C-x 8' is so convenient, for producing, say, "Bölmer" or
"Fløgstad" without having to switch to a German or Norwegian input
method.

Of course if you do write some text in Polish it'd be cumbersome to use
`C-x 8' all the time and you ought to use a relevant input method (and
cycling through input methods for multilingual writing is a very nice
idea).

The usage cases here are distinct, in my mind.





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 18:11               ` Tor Kringeland
@ 2021-11-29 18:44                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-12-03 15:55                   ` Tor Kringeland
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-11-29 18:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tor Kringeland; +Cc: Robert Pluim, 52173

Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no> writes:

> Names like these are common to write in English now, which
> is why I think `C-x 8' is so convenient, for producing, say, "Bölmer" or
> "Fløgstad" without having to switch to a German or Norwegian input
> method.
>
> Of course if you do write some text in Polish it'd be cumbersome to use
> `C-x 8' all the time and you ought to use a relevant input method (and
> cycling through input methods for multilingual writing is a very nice
> idea).
>
> The usage cases here are distinct, in my mind.

Yup.  So I think adding more things to iso-transl-char-map is fine (as
long as we don't go totally overboard).

I.e., I think we should add things here as people request them.  

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 18:44                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-12-03 15:55                   ` Tor Kringeland
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Tor Kringeland @ 2021-12-03 15:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: Robert Pluim, 52173

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Yup.  So I think adding more things to iso-transl-char-map is fine (as
> long as we don't go totally overboard).

I sent a patch earlier in the discussion.  Is it acceptable?





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-11-29 13:55   ` Tor Kringeland
  2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
@ 2021-12-03 16:44     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-12-04  5:46       ` Richard Stallman
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-12-03 16:44 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Tor Kringeland; +Cc: Robert Pluim, 52173

Tor Kringeland <tor.a.s.kringeland@ntnu.no> writes:

> I'm attaching a patch for `C-x 8' to include with Polish characters.
> It's missing `ż', for which I cannot of a good key-binding for (`C-x 8 .'
> is taken).  Any ideas?

Thanks; applied to Emacs 29.

I doubt that `C-x 8 .' is used extremely frequently, so I've now moved
it to `C-x 8 . .', so that we can open up that useful map to more
characters.  (And put `ż' there.)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-03 16:44     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-12-04  5:46       ` Richard Stallman
  2021-12-04  5:56         ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-12-04  5:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I doubt that `C-x 8 .' is used extremely frequently, so I've now moved
  > it to `C-x 8 . .', 

Please don't make that change.

Characters like centerdot are the sort of thing that C-x 8 CHAR is meant for.
It is the natural way to enter them.
Input methods don't include centerdot, so the way to get it is with C-x 8 .

The Polish input methods should handle ż.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-04  5:46       ` Richard Stallman
@ 2021-12-04  5:56         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-12-05  5:07           ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-12-04  5:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   > I doubt that `C-x 8 .' is used extremely frequently, so I've now moved
>   > it to `C-x 8 . .', 
>
> Please don't make that change.
>
> Characters like centerdot are the sort of thing that C-x 8 CHAR is meant for.
> It is the natural way to enter them.

You can still enter centerdot with `C-x 8'.  You just have to repeat the
dot.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-04  5:56         ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-12-05  5:07           ` Richard Stallman
  2021-12-05  5:10             ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-12-05  5:07 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > You can still enter centerdot with `C-x 8'.  You just have to repeat the
  > dot.

Ok, it is not a disaster.  But it's an incompatible change.
Is the incompatibility necessary?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-05  5:07           ` Richard Stallman
@ 2021-12-05  5:10             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-12-06  4:33               ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-12-05  5:10 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Ok, it is not a disaster.  But it's an incompatible change.
> Is the incompatibility necessary?

I think so, yes.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-05  5:10             ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-12-06  4:33               ` Richard Stallman
  2021-12-06  5:04                 ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-12-06  4:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Ok, it is not a disaster.  But it's an incompatible change.
  > > Is the incompatibility necessary?

  > I think so, yes.

Would you please present an argument in favor of the change?
There might be a good reason, I just didn't see one stated here.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-06  4:33               ` Richard Stallman
@ 2021-12-06  5:04                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
  2021-12-06 17:38                   ` Juri Linkov
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Lars Ingebrigtsen @ 2021-12-06  5:04 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, rpluim

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> Would you please present an argument in favor of the change?
> There might be a good reason, I just didn't see one stated here.

`C-x 8 .' is useful for a prefix for a number of characters that we
might want to add in the future.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-06  5:04                 ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
@ 2021-12-06 17:38                   ` Juri Linkov
  2021-12-07  4:16                     ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 25+ messages in thread
From: Juri Linkov @ 2021-12-06 17:38 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Lars Ingebrigtsen; +Cc: tor.a.s.kringeland, 52173, Richard Stallman, rpluim

>> Would you please present an argument in favor of the change?
>> There might be a good reason, I just didn't see one stated here.
>
> `C-x 8 .' is useful for a prefix for a number of characters that we
> might want to add in the future.

Here's a list of characters that could be added for the prefix ".":

grep "(\"\." lisp/leim/quail/compose.el
 (".>" ?›)
 (".<" ?‹)
 (".." ?…)
 (".-" ?·)
 (".^" ?·)
 (".=" ?•)
 (".C" ?Ċ)
 (".c" ?ċ)
 (".E" ?Ė)
 (".e" ?ė)
 (".G" ?Ġ)
 (".g" ?ġ)
 (".I" ?İ)
 (".i" ?ı)
 (".Z" ?Ż)
 (".z" ?ż)
 (".A" ?Ȧ)
 (".a" ?ȧ)
 (".O" ?Ȯ)
 (".o" ?ȯ)
 (".B" ?Ḃ)
 (".b" ?ḃ)
 (".D" ?Ḋ)
 (".d" ?ḋ)
 (".F" ?Ḟ)
 (".f" ?ḟ)
 (".H" ?Ḣ)
 (".h" ?ḣ)
 (".M" ?Ṁ)
 (".m" ?ṁ)
 (".N" ?Ṅ)
 (".n" ?ṅ)
 (".P" ?Ṗ)
 (".p" ?ṗ)
 (".R" ?Ṙ)
 (".r" ?ṙ)
 (".S" ?Ṡ)
 (".s" ?ṡ)
 (".Ś" ?Ṥ)
 (".´S" ?Ṥ)
 (".'S" ?Ṥ)
 (".ś" ?ṥ)
 (".´s" ?ṥ)
 (".'s" ?ṥ)
 (".Š" ?Ṧ)
 (".š" ?ṧ)
 (".Ṣ" ?Ṩ)
 (".!S" ?Ṩ)
 (".ṣ" ?ṩ)
 (".!s" ?ṩ)
 (".T" ?Ṫ)
 (".t" ?ṫ)
 (".W" ?Ẇ)
 (".w" ?ẇ)
 (".X" ?Ẋ)
 (".x" ?ẋ)
 (".Y" ?Ẏ)
 (".y" ?ẏ)
 (".ſ" ?ẛ)
 (".○" ?⊙)
 (".:" ?∵)





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

* bug#52173: `Å›' character not available using `C-x 8'
  2021-12-06 17:38                   ` Juri Linkov
@ 2021-12-07  4:16                     ` Richard Stallman
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 25+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2021-12-07  4:16 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Juri Linkov; +Cc: larsi, 52173, tor.a.s.kringeland, rpluim

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Here's a list of characters that could be added for the prefix ".":

It never occurred to me there were so many dot characters.
I feel I'm going dotty!

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)







^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 25+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2021-12-07  4:16 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 25+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2021-11-29  3:08 bug#52173: `ś' character not available using `C-x 8' Tor Kringeland
2021-11-29  9:30 ` Robert Pluim
2021-11-29 13:55   ` Tor Kringeland
2021-11-29 14:06     ` Robert Pluim
2021-11-29 14:24       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-11-29 14:37         ` Robert Pluim
2021-11-29 14:43           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-11-29 14:49             ` Robert Pluim
2021-11-29 18:11               ` Tor Kringeland
2021-11-29 18:44                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-12-03 15:55                   ` Tor Kringeland
2021-11-29 15:55       ` André A. Gomes
2021-11-29 16:52         ` Robert Pluim
2021-11-29 17:03           ` André A. Gomes
2021-11-29 17:19             ` Robert Pluim
2021-12-03 16:44     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-12-04  5:46       ` Richard Stallman
2021-12-04  5:56         ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-12-05  5:07           ` Richard Stallman
2021-12-05  5:10             ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-12-06  4:33               ` Richard Stallman
2021-12-06  5:04                 ` bug#52173: `Å›' " Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-12-06 17:38                   ` Juri Linkov
2021-12-07  4:16                     ` Richard Stallman
2021-11-29 17:09 ` bug#52173: `ś' " Juri Linkov

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