bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Stefan Kangas]

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Here's a small patch which changes the major mode from outline-mode to
org-mode in some files:

CONTRIBUTE
etc/CALC-NEWS
etc/DEBUG
etc/MACHINES
etc/PROBLEMS
etc/TODO

I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
intuitive to users.  IME and IMO, just the simple fact that you can
cycle headlines with TAB in org-mode makes things a whole lot easier.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

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From 35374226da89f3e2f3ecd088873bd6ba253806f3 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:37:02 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

* CONTRIBUTE:
* etc/CALC-NEWS:
* etc/DEBUG:
* etc/MACHINES:
* etc/PROBLEMS:
* etc/TODO: Use org-mode instead of outline-mode.
---
 CONTRIBUTE    | 3 ++-
 etc/CALC-NEWS | 3 ++-
 etc/DEBUG     | 3 ++-
 etc/MACHINES  | 3 ++-
 etc/PROBLEMS  | 3 ++-
 etc/TODO      | 3 ++-
 6 files changed, 12 insertions(+), 6 deletions(-)

diff --git a/CONTRIBUTE b/CONTRIBUTE
index d9502dcac3..728d02d6d1 100644
--- a/CONTRIBUTE
+++ b/CONTRIBUTE
@@ -409,8 +409,9 @@ GNU General Public License for more details.
 You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 along with GNU Emacs.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
 \f
+#+STARTUP: showall
 Local variables:
-mode: outline
+mode: org
 paragraph-separate: "[ 	\f]*$"
 coding: utf-8
 end:
diff --git a/etc/CALC-NEWS b/etc/CALC-NEWS
index a0b9cdf696..5abc75e017 100644
--- a/etc/CALC-NEWS
+++ b/etc/CALC-NEWS
@@ -1161,6 +1161,7 @@ You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 along with GNU Emacs.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
 
 \f
+#+STARTUP: showall
 Local variables:
-mode: outline
+mode: org
 end:
diff --git a/etc/DEBUG b/etc/DEBUG
index 7fb7e44758..5d52436553 100644
--- a/etc/DEBUG
+++ b/etc/DEBUG
@@ -1031,7 +1031,8 @@ You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 along with GNU Emacs.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
 
 \f
+#+STARTUP: showall
 Local variables:
-mode: outline
+mode: org
 paragraph-separate: "[ 	\f]*$"
 end:
diff --git a/etc/MACHINES b/etc/MACHINES
index 1bb244b49b..59ac9234f5 100644
--- a/etc/MACHINES
+++ b/etc/MACHINES
@@ -109,8 +109,9 @@ If for some reason you encounter an ancient machine where current
 Emacs does not compile, try an older release like Emacs 22.3.
 
 \f
+#+STARTUP: showall
 Local variables:
-mode: outline
+mode: org
 fill-prefix: "  "
 End:
 
diff --git a/etc/PROBLEMS b/etc/PROBLEMS
index 4ce738d9a5..4f90ccc7a5 100644
--- a/etc/PROBLEMS
+++ b/etc/PROBLEMS
@@ -3417,7 +3417,8 @@ You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 along with GNU Emacs.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
 
 \f
+#+STARTUP: showall
 Local variables:
-mode: outline
+mode: org
 paragraph-separate: "[  \f]*$"
 end:
diff --git a/etc/TODO b/etc/TODO
index 20262a77e9..035518e7a2 100644
--- a/etc/TODO
+++ b/etc/TODO
@@ -1,4 +1,4 @@
-Emacs TODO List                                                   -*-outline-*-
+Emacs TODO List                                                   -*-org-*-
 
 Copyright (C) 2001-2020 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
 See the end of the file for license conditions.
@@ -1617,6 +1617,7 @@ GNU General Public License for more details.
 You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
 along with GNU Emacs.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
 
+#+STARTUP: showall
 ;; Local Variables:
 ;; coding: utf-8
 ;; End:
-- 
2.26.1

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 11:42:05 +0200
> 
> Here's a small patch which changes the major mode from outline-mode to
> org-mode in some files:
> 
> CONTRIBUTE
> etc/CALC-NEWS
> etc/DEBUG
> etc/MACHINES
> etc/PROBLEMS
> etc/TODO
> 
> I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
> intuitive to users.

It is also much larger and heavier.

> IME and IMO, just the simple fact that you can cycle headlines with
> TAB in org-mode makes things a whole lot easier.

What do you mean by "cycle headlines", and why cannot it be done in
Outline mode?

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
> > intuitive to users.
>
> It is also much larger and heavier.

Is that a problem in practice?

> > IME and IMO, just the simple fact that you can cycle headlines with
> > TAB in org-mode makes things a whole lot easier.
>
> What do you mean by "cycle headlines", and why cannot it be done in
> Outline mode?

By cycling headlines, I mean hiding and showing them (see org-cycle).
Outline has ten different outline-show-* and outline-hide-* commands
with their respective key bindings.  Org-mode has one key for all
this: TAB.  I should perhaps not have put that much emphasis on this
aspect -- it just happens to be the reason why I personally find
outline-mode hard to use.

The main argument is that org-mode will be more familiar to users and
prospective Emacs hackers.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 12:39:12 +0200
> Cc: 40813@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
> > > intuitive to users.
> >
> > It is also much larger and heavier.
> 
> Is that a problem in practice?

Of course it is.  We should be economical, and not bloat the memory
footprint of a running Emacs session unnecessarily.

> > > IME and IMO, just the simple fact that you can cycle headlines with
> > > TAB in org-mode makes things a whole lot easier.
> >
> > What do you mean by "cycle headlines", and why cannot it be done in
> > Outline mode?
> 
> By cycling headlines, I mean hiding and showing them (see org-cycle).
> Outline has ten different outline-show-* and outline-hide-* commands
> with their respective key bindings.  Org-mode has one key for all
> this: TAB.

Is there any reason not to have that key binding in Outline mode as
well?

> The main argument is that org-mode will be more familiar to users and
> prospective Emacs hackers.

That needs to be established.  And the relevant population is not all
of the users, only those who tend to read NEWS.  If they indeed prefer
Org mode, let's switch.

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hello, Stefan.

In article <mailman.1087.1587724805.3066.bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> you wrote:
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
>> > intuitive to users.

I'm certain that's not right.  Anybody who can use Emacs at all knows
outline-mode well enough to use it effectively.

>> It is also much larger and heavier.

> Is that a problem in practice?

Very much so.  If these files' modes are changed to org-mode, then
sooner or later, org-mode enthusiasts will start filling them up with
obscure org-mode features, such that only an "org-mode elite" will be
able to edit these files.  Or it will cost an inordinate amount of time
to learn org-mode each time a non-org contributor needs to amend such a
file.

Org-mode is difficult to learn and opaque (see discussions of its
documentation in other threads).  It is thus unsuitable for basic text
files.

[ .... ]

> The main argument is that org-mode will be more familiar to users and
> prospective Emacs hackers.

I'm certain that's not right.  See above.

I'm strongly against this change happening.  But if it is to happen, it
should be drawn to people's attention by having a discussion in
emacs-devel.

> Best regards,
> Stefan Kangas

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Of course it is.  We should be economical, and not bloat the memory
> footprint of a running Emacs session unnecessarily.

On my machine, "emacs -Q" uses this much memory on start (according to pmap):

 total           363448K

After M-x org-mode, the same process is using:

 total           372916K

The difference is 2.6 percent.

> Is there any reason not to have that key binding in Outline mode as
> well?

I guess it's just a matter of someone writing the code to make it happen.

> > The main argument is that org-mode will be more familiar to users and
> > prospective Emacs hackers.
>
> That needs to be established.

Oh, okay.  I based this statement on that I have seen almost no (or
very few) recommendations of outline-mode over the years, while Org
mode seems to be everywhere.  But of course this is mostly anecdotal.

> And the relevant population is not all
> of the users, only those who tend to read NEWS.  If they indeed prefer
> Org mode, let's switch.

OK, I agree.  I will ask emacs-devel.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Alan,

Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> writes:

> >> > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
> >> > intuitive to users.
>
> I'm certain that's not right.  Anybody who can use Emacs at all knows
> outline-mode well enough to use it effectively.

FWIW, I never learned outline-mode properly.  I gave up at some point
and learned org-mode instead, which was a much smoother process
(mostly due to much better default keybindings).  But I started using
Emacs as late as 2004, so I guess YMMV.

> Very much so.  If these files' modes are changed to org-mode, then
> sooner or later, org-mode enthusiasts will start filling them up with
> obscure org-mode features, such that only an "org-mode elite" will be
> able to edit these files.

Which features do you think people would be interested in using
besides the navigational commands?  I can't think of any.

> Org-mode is difficult to learn and opaque (see discussions of its
> documentation in other threads).  It is thus unsuitable for basic text
> files.

I obviously have a different opinion.  :-)

> I'm strongly against this change happening.  But if it is to happen, it
> should be drawn to people's attention by having a discussion in
> emacs-devel.

Yup, makes sense.  I'll do that.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:11:26 +0200, Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> said:
    >> And the relevant population is not all
    >> of the users, only those who tend to read NEWS.  If they indeed prefer
    >> Org mode, let's switch.

Iʼll admit to not using any outline mode features in NEWS, but thatʼs
because I tend to write NEWS entries rather than reading them. And
when I do read NEWS I read it all the way through because Iʼm
proofreading it.

Ribert

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 14:11:26 +0200
> Cc: 40813@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Of course it is.  We should be economical, and not bloat the memory
> > footprint of a running Emacs session unnecessarily.
> 
> On my machine, "emacs -Q" uses this much memory on start (according to pmap):
> 
>  total           363448K
> 
> After M-x org-mode, the same process is using:
> 
>  total           372916K
> 
> The difference is 2.6 percent.

It's 25MB vs 22MB here, so it's 3 MB against your 1MB.  I guess some
other factor is at play.  And yes, 3MB of memory footprint is not a
negligible amount in my book.

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Noam Postavsky]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
>> > intuitive to users.
>>
>> It is also much larger and heavier.
>
> Is that a problem in practice?

I see a noticeable delay the first time I open an org file.  It's a
little annoying.

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Kévin Le Gouguec]

Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se> writes:

>> Is there any reason not to have that key binding in Outline mode as
>> well?
>
> I guess it's just a matter of someone writing the code to make it happen.

I find that merely binding outline-toggle-children to TAB makes
outline-mode instantly more usable (as far as reading goes).  It's not
as featureful as org-mode's org-cycle, but it makes browsing e.g. NEWS
much more enjoyable IME.

FWIW I agree that whipping out org-mode just to get single-key cycling
feels a bit heavy-handed.  Cf. the current discussion on emacs-devel:
this would be a good opportunity to generalize a feature of org-mode
(here, section cycling) by extracting it (here, to outline-mode and
outline-minor-mode).

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > I believe org-mode is vastly more well-known and arguably also more
  > > intuitive to users.

  > It is also much larger and heavier.

Does the choice between Outline mode and Org mode involve any
incompatibility in the format the files need to have?

Putting the same question the other way, is this as easy as just changing
the specification of the major mode for the files, and nothing else in them?

If that's all it is, we could add a variable that tells outline-mode
to call org-mode.  Then each user could have it per way.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: stefan@marxist.se, 40813@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2020 23:34:49 -0400
> 
> Does the choice between Outline mode and Org mode involve any
> incompatibility in the format the files need to have?

Once people will use Org features for editing NEWS that are not
supported by Outline, they will indeed create incompatibilities.

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Once people will use Org features for editing NEWS that are not
  > supported by Outline, they will indeed create incompatibilities.

If those constructs are not supposed to be in the NEWS file, we could
have a script check the file's validity.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Sat, 25 Apr 2020 23:24:39 -0400, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> said:

    Richard> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
    Richard> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
    Richard> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    >> Once people will use Org features for editing NEWS that are not
    >> supported by Outline, they will indeed create incompatibilities.

    Richard> If those constructs are not supposed to be in the NEWS file, we could
    Richard> have a script check the file's validity.

I donʼt think thatʼs the way to go: it will make those who wish to use
those constructs complain when they discover they canʼt. The simplest
solution has already been suggested: bind TAB to
outline-toggle-children. That gets us 80% [1] of what Org users are
expecting.

Robert

Footnotes:
[1]  Thatʼs a SWAG

bug#40813: [PATCH] Convert some files from outline-mode to org-mode

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 40813 + notabug wontfix
close 40813
thanks

The discussion on emacs-devel has revealed that this is likely not
something we will want to do.

But it led to some good suggestions for how to improve outline-mode.
I intend to file separate feature requests with those proposals.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to participate in this
discussion.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas