From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Richard M Stallman Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#2473: usability issues on emacs's describe-mode Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 Message-ID: References: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> Reply-To: rms@gnu.org, 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-15 X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1235730243 2024 80.91.229.12 (27 Feb 2009 10:24:03 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:24:03 +0000 (UTC) Cc: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: xah lee , 2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Fri Feb 27 11:25:18 2009 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1Lczu7-0006tp-NX for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 11:25:16 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45871 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lczsm-0005A5-PR for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:52 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Lczsd-000577-PG for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:43 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1Lczsb-000554-6W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:42 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=57117 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1Lczsa-00054i-RC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:40 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:55365) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1Lczsa-00049W-5d for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:40 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RANbNR007538; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:23:38 -0800 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id n1RAK5bA006403; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:20:05 -0800 X-Loop: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com Resent-From: Richard M Stallman Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:20:04 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: owner@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: followup 2473 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 2473-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B2473.12357295924923 (code B ref 2473); Fri, 27 Feb 2009 10:20:04 +0000 Original-Received: (at 2473) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 27 Feb 2009 10:13:12 +0000 X-Spam-Bayes: score:0.5 Bayes not run. spammytokens:Tokens not available. hammytokens:Tokens not available. Original-Received: from fencepost.gnu.org (fencepost.gnu.org [140.186.70.10]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id n1RAD9Ot004914 for <2473@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:13:10 -0800 Original-Received: from rms by fencepost.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.67) (envelope-from ) id 1Lczg9-0006xy-C8; Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:10:49 -0500 In-reply-to: <3FD7E241-BEE3-43D6-B7F6-79A3758562FB@xahlee.org> (message from xah lee on Wed, 25 Feb 2009 11:40:24 -0800) X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Fri, 27 Feb 2009 05:23:42 -0500 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:25764 Archived-At: Most of the minor modes, filled with emacs-specific technicalities and terminologies, are not something emacs users need to know daily. When user calls describe-mode, most of the time she really want to know what functionality and shortcuts the major mode provides. But these minor modes often fills more than 60% of the page. To me, it is really a pain to read (a emacs user for 10 years), and i have learned the habit not even seeing them. I imagine it is very confusing to new emacs users. YOU enabled a lot of those minor modes. Here's what I get in emacs -Q: Enabled minor modes: Auto-Composition Auto-Compression Auto-Encryption File-Name-Shadow Font-Lock Global-Auto-Composition Global-Font-Lock Gpm-Mouse Line-Number Menu-Bar Tool-Bar Tooltip Transient-Mark (Information about these minor modes follows the major mode info.) I don't think that list is going to make it hard for anyone to keep reading. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Imagine, it has to annoy users about discussion such as Blink-Cursor, Tooltip, Menu-Bar, Mouse-Wheel, Transient-Mark, Delete-Selection, Font-Lock, Line-Number. Each of these is at least one paragraph long, These are at the END. When the user sees them, she has already read the info on the major mode, and she knows it. She will only try to read about the minor modes if she is curious about them. We list the minor mode info here as well as the major mode info, because otherwise we would need a separate command to give info about them, and that would be burdensome in another way. The way we present it is the best possible compromise between the various goals. It gives the minor mode info in brief form at the front, but puts most of it at the end, out of the way. I do see two ways to improve this: * Most minor mode doc strings include a standard explanation of what the argument means. We could include one copy of that standard explanation at the front of the list of minor mode doc strings, and then delete it from each of the individual doc strings, leaving just the explanation of what the mode means. * Some of these modes which are now enabled by default could perhaps be eliminated, leaving them only as options, or perhaps removing them entirely. That would shorten the list of enabled minor modes and make what remains more interesting. For instance, do we need to have Auto Compression mode as a minor mode? If you want to examine one compressed file without uncompressing it, it is easier to use find-file-literally. I think it is only for debugging that one would ever disable use Auto Compression mode. For that purpose, a No Auto Compression mode would be just as good, or perhaps a No File Handlers mode. Here are other default-on minor modes we should perhaps eliminate as modes: Auto-Composition Auto-Encryption File-Name-Shadow Global-Auto-Composition Gpm-Mouse Line-Number Tooltip