From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#12908: 24.3.50; file `emacs_backtrace.txt'? Date: Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:40:08 -0800 Message-ID: References: <4B9EFDFEE27E43DBB6331605DD7C2842@us.oracle.com> <50A7DB2C.7050501@cs.ucla.edu> <8339082gig.fsf@gnu.org> <753BC08DCC9A446BB22336EDB8AF31CF@us.oracle.com> <83fw471s0y.fsf@gnu.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1353213675 4115 80.91.229.3 (18 Nov 2012 04:41:15 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:41:15 +0000 (UTC) Cc: eggert@cs.ucla.edu, 12908@debbugs.gnu.org To: "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Nov 18 05:41:26 2012 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwhA-0003TX-OM for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sun, 18 Nov 2012 05:41:24 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55176 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwh0-0004PL-I7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:14 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([208.118.235.92]:59459) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwgv-0004OL-Oc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:12 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwgs-0001vl-MC for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:09 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:41606) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwgs-0001vh-IQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:06 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwhl-0007jd-RS for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:42:02 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Original-Sender: debbugs-submit-bounces@debbugs.gnu.org Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:42:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 12908 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 12908-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B12908.135321370229708 (code B ref 12908); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:42:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 12908) by debbugs.gnu.org; 18 Nov 2012 04:41:42 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:51857 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwhS-0007j6-DP for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:42 -0500 Original-Received: from userp1040.oracle.com ([156.151.31.81]:41915) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.72) (envelope-from ) id 1TZwhQ-0007ix-0t for 12908@debbugs.gnu.org; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 23:41:41 -0500 Original-Received: from ucsinet21.oracle.com (ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93]) by userp1040.oracle.com (Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2/Sentrion-MTA-4.2.2) with ESMTP id qAI4eImt027221 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:40:19 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt357.oracle.com (acsmt357.oracle.com [141.146.40.157]) by ucsinet21.oracle.com (8.14.4+Sun/8.14.4) with ESMTP id qAI4eHss025801 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Sun, 18 Nov 2012 04:40:18 GMT Original-Received: from abhmt120.oracle.com (abhmt120.oracle.com [141.146.116.72]) by acsmt357.oracle.com (8.12.11.20060308/8.12.11) with ESMTP id qAI4eH8g007031; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 22:40:17 -0600 Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/71.202.147.44) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Sat, 17 Nov 2012 20:40:17 -0800 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: <83fw471s0y.fsf@gnu.org> Thread-Index: Ac3FQQRXWus4+czcSLqvmDQwyGX9mAAADCHg X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.6157 X-Source-IP: ucsinet21.oracle.com [156.151.31.93] X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.13 Precedence: list X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:67107 Archived-At: > > That has been my point from the beginning: I don't really care where > > you stick it, as long as it is in some Emacs/system internal program > > folder and not a user folder. > > On Unix, the data winds up in some directory under user's home > directory. See the manual. I don't care what Emacs does on Unix or on Windows. Or on Peanut Butter. See the manual - sheesh. If Emacs on Unix is just as user-inconsiderate in this regard as it is on Windows, then it too needs to be sent back for regrooving. My point is the same: Please do not plop such a file into a user folder. On any platform. It does not belong there. I just happen to be using Emacs on Windows, and I reported this problem there. If it is not Windows-specific, fine - please fix it wherever it occurs. You are discussing implementation and platforms, as well you should, no doubt. But my concern is at the user level. Please don't mess with user data. That's not nice. And this includes user folders containing user files. I really don't care about the finger-pointing. You apparently claim that there is as much of this problem on Unix as on Windows. Some others seem to disagree (though that's not too clear to me). That does not matter to me. If there is a problem on platform XYZ, please fix it on XYZ. For all XYZ, preferably. For Windows, at least. It does not sound like a great argument to say that this will not be fixed on Windows until someone agrees to fix it on Unix also. Especially if those who would presumably be the ones to fix it on Unix do not seem to agree that it is a problem on Unix (again, I'm not sure that's what the claim is). IOW, here we go 'round & 'round again. Musical chairs with a bit of blame game thrown in, it seems. I hope the bug gets fixed. On Windows, at least, this is a regression: Users have never before had to put up with this Emacs pollution of user folders. Introducing a regression and then classifying it as `wont-fix' is disingenuous. Please just restore the state before the regression if you cannot find a good way to fix the bug and still get the backtrace info you want. Restore the sane state while you go on to discuss possible ways to deal with the problem in a ideal way. If you never find that ideal way, then leave things as they were before. I really do not agree with freewheeling introduction of "improvements" that are accompanied by regressions or other negative behavior that is then classified as `wont-fix'. Be less interested in your creative development than in the possible harm/annoyance to users of its side effects. The first rule should be not to do any harm. The second rule should be that if you accidentally do some harm while trying to improve something, then undo the harm. We have users jump through 39 questions/confirmations just to send a bug-report message or exit without saving a buffer. Nice and careful, respectful of user wishes. And yet here we are now writing crap to user folders without so much as a "Do you really want to...?" - or even a "Hey, I just wrote some crap to your folder XYZ - sorry about that!"