From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#36729: 27.0.50; Unclear total in directory listing Date: Sun, 21 Jul 2019 20:36:15 +0200 Message-ID: References: <048FD91B-CDA0-4444-8F6F-C5B2F5C595CD@acm.org> <83k1ceusn1.fsf@gnu.org> <68D3B8E0-26F0-474A-B76D-320E523DBDDC@acm.org> <8336izsbok.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 12.4 \(3445.104.11\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: blaine.gmane.org; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:195.159.176.226"; logging-data="42050"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@blaine.gmane.org" Cc: 36729@debbugs.gnu.org, stephen.berman@gmx.net To: Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sun Jul 21 20:37:09 2019 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.89) (envelope-from ) id 1hpGho-000Aoh-3Z for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; 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a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1563734178; bh=VRVza+3IsoPV/FP5Q51wb3Nd8N4GNwKcmiAwhLBxPa4=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=kOP+ClNvTvNqubK/eWlH9KCDktSc93PGdSXWuh5YmcounXnvptHp1cC8ndpVcrmTw eA3t1EH+Pl1pSbhnW1F4foGxVmW+X9uVB2JEVQhV6NLtAZ9fLgGuxWdIZK9o5+T3tW twD1BKls0/ByS0C+9wPv7z9PZgkiaV2pBD/gRJnw= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Original-Received: from [192.168.0.4] ([188.150.171.71]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail102c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id x6LIaFoG013999; Sun, 21 Jul 2019 18:36:17 +0000 In-Reply-To: <8336izsbok.fsf@gnu.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.104.11) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A0B0202.5D34B0A2.000F, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-CSC: 0 X-CHA: v=2.3 cv=RfS+9Wlv c=1 sm=1 tr=0 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:117 a=SF+I6pRkHZhrawxbOkkvaA==:17 a=jpOVt7BSZ2e4Z31A5e1TngXxSK0=:19 a=kj9zAlcOel0A:10 a=mDV3o1hIAAAA:8 a=xJC5c8JSQjeCgl1JxboA:9 a=CjuIK1q_8ugA:10 a=_FVE-zBwftR9WsbkzFJk:22 X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.2.x-3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 209.51.188.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:163555 Archived-At: 21 juli 2019 kl. 16.29 skrev Eli Zaretskii : >=20 > (Your reaction seems to imply that I said something silly. Did I?) Absolutely not, your comment was most reasonable. It was just my honest = reaction of exasperation for not being able to fix such a stupid detail = properly. > Your original report was about the unclear units of the value, so a > useful clarification would be to tell something about those units. > That is what I had in mind when I suggested a doc clarification. Quite, but while we could write that the value might be this or that, it = wouldn't actually help the user unless he or she is so well-informed = that no explanation is needed. As we all know, good design should not = need explaining. > We already have ls-lisp.el. It isn't used on platforms where 'ls' is > available because AFAIK using 'ls' is faster. Is that is still noticeable on modern systems, or just for very big = and/or recursive listings? I understand the history behind Dired's design: at one point in time, = using the system `ls' was not only a way to re-use existing system = software, but also gave performance advantages as well as presenting the = information in a familiar way. In addition, the `ls' output was more or = less identical everywhere, making it easy to parse (no localisation, no = Unicode, no MS-DOS, no fancy GNU or BSD options). The `ls -l' format, in turn, hasn't changed perceptibly for 40 years, = give or take a few -- not because it was perfect from the start but = because nobody dared breaking scripts and shell pipelines for minor = usability advantages. Thus we are stuck with silly design elements like: - major structure indicated with a discrete 'd' in column 1 - less-important stuff like the link count and group name prominently = displayed - the file name itself relegated to the very end as if an afterthought, = often going past the margin - disk usage counted in 512-byte physical disk sectors (but not = including subdirectories, that would be too useful) - timestamp parts separated in columns equal in importance to other = attributes - directory 'size' column almost completely useless - little support for file system improvements since 1975 We can do better, while retaining the old format for those who have = grown too accustomed to it (not meant as pejorative). It's just not what I had planned for in order to fix this bug.