From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phil Hudson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 17:03:07 +0100 Message-ID: References: <8735hlnypl.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmkojlg7.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmkncank.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilqfav4z.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee123jwq.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="10623"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , 55301@debbugs.gnu.org To: Robert Pluim Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue May 17 18:06:54 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzio-0002WX-2j for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 18:06:54 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:55118 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzim-0005mM-AD for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:06:52 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:52302) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzg2-0004KA-9W for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:04:04 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:35578) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzg1-0007YM-Qq for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:04:01 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzg1-0000qS-NF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:04:01 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Phil Hudson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 16:04:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 55301 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo Original-Received: via spool by 55301-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B55301.16528034143206 (code B ref 55301); Tue, 17 May 2022 16:04:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 55301) by debbugs.gnu.org; 17 May 2022 16:03:34 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57708 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzfR-0000pX-PI for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:03:34 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-f43.google.com ([209.85.217.43]:46869) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nqzfQ-0000pJ-4t for 55301@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 17 May 2022 12:03:24 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-f43.google.com with SMTP id z144so19097159vsz.13 for <55301@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 17 May 2022 09:03:24 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=QWHhEXQ/4k9Cf6sK0P5RjQQmfDgAAxs9qObzBhjan5w=; b=NQXVRkTYI743ZbEEPl6zrqDoj0ChZEpKXydq9Qe6RsjdqTgDzC1gdgTTn/dCDdSlfy H0dT5acVLqW279N9PoccrjwmrlG7g2IZG8fo581XVa/JqbnPv5qO8s0+ZDKgQ/gwWLDv 0JFSgTXDg6PEzXLRYXCJR7Sq3RzHqyuJY4ARAYhlTNTBwc0Z67V6PJqO6PibrMFQRP3R 5OJm8OP8YNtxRy07ynHW9V9WfQRriZSqDSNX8I8jyqbzJLwvvMdfLxB2V94ZsPZbMcGK XuMPddakWYQqwXD/3Riqr+UojVYNwytgLfquVkG+cluj2qgTDO8sYN2FUCvQjIr9RLs8 I9AA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM532UEWN9RxoJAW3t8oEfUSzD8sPymyXO9XcgdxDmBACMj3gyXoWS GEjGIDBFKKcSxIccfqAGbhsvHetPy+iJaLPkXdI= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzBpgBj/0/hgOIhe9/fVNlp9rlJc73pMBglm+LonPMK5hRNoOMzVMCqvuUEr+xmQviMaxiO9/lrQL+kJs9C+oA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:113:b0:32d:8a58:fde7 with SMTP id z19-20020a056102011300b0032d8a58fde7mr8842546vsq.54.1652803398569; Tue, 17 May 2022 09:03:18 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:232464 Archived-At: So after a week, can I get a clear yes or no on this? Either is fine. On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 16:04, Phil Hudson wrote: > > On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 14:39, Robert Pluim wrote: > > > > >>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100, Phil Hudson said: > > > > Phil> Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal p= references? > > > > Yes, but if a keymap were a defcustom, then the whole keymap would be > > in your .emacs, and you would not receive any updates if the keymap > > definition changed, since that affects the *default* defcustom value. > > True that, and I had not thought of it, but now that I have, I still > don't see it as necessarily confounding. Doesn't the same objection > (if it is one) apply to *every* defcustom? Is that not the risk that > the user takes when they change any custom option, and the risk that > every dev takes when they introduce a defcustom? > > > Now if you wanted to define a defcustom type for changing bindings in a= n > > existing keymap, that=CA=BCs a different proposition (and we already ha= ve > > define-key, so I=CA=BCm not so sure of the utility). > > That is exactly what I (think I) want. The utility is admittedly > marginal but perhaps not trivial. It's the difference between a > declarative approach, which I take to be intrinsically more accessible > and intuitive, especially to non-programmers, versus an imperative > one. It's essentially the case for custom options in general. > > I suppose my maximalist claim would be that mode-defined keymaps are > self-evidently customize options that have somehow historically been > accidentally overlooked. I'm not entirely convinced myself, though. > Maybe we should just let it sit for a while. There's obviously > something about it that doesn't *feel* right to people with deeper > insight than I have.