From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Phil Hudson Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#55301: 27.2; RFE: Auto-create defcustom for declared minor mode keymap Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 16:04:26 +0100 Message-ID: References: <8735hlnypl.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmkojlg7.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmkncank.fsf@gnus.org> <87ilqfav4z.fsf@gnus.org> <87ee123jwq.fsf@gmail.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="4182"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , 55301@debbugs.gnu.org To: Robert Pluim Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon May 09 17:19:23 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1no5AQ-0000td-Po for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 17:19:22 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:60698 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1no5AP-0003FC-Se for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:19:21 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:35418) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1no4wZ-0004Ju-8E for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:05:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:37061) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1no4wY-0002ut-RF for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:05:02 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no4wY-0005YN-Ia for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:05:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Phil Hudson Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:05:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 55301 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: moreinfo Original-Received: via spool by 55301-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B55301.165210868321318 (code B ref 55301); Mon, 09 May 2022 15:05:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 55301) by debbugs.gnu.org; 9 May 2022 15:04:43 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:59191 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no4wF-0005Xm-Hw for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:43 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-vs1-f52.google.com ([209.85.217.52]:34741) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1no4wE-0005Xb-Pp for 55301@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 09 May 2022 11:04:43 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-vs1-f52.google.com with SMTP id e10so14177102vsr.1 for <55301@debbugs.gnu.org>; Mon, 09 May 2022 08:04:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc:content-transfer-encoding; bh=PBCM+8YQ3Jf+/PeUkbYj/qxppu8oEAzSqGikT4m2+Dk=; b=nhoUVw96XSCp3zJe18g1EMAW6NacUAeDaon39w5h6QpqBYjvRyigp78yR8ZXM86p2i 3Xy+gdBNaBxm8Sar7buaNfXM1jEtrTAa7XQhW08TjGnAG7M50zhG9f6lhxextprPRxmo v07zqxf5fqKTTDGA/E0zuvJhdT24aI+bftAiAbnkheHaueSb7MGDziX9aF6BmZvULU6V SFb4ZWFZzOboISr+MaoD1YpK/QPQ5uTcvVpQkUIGJcfVooTxLF3rltz4pK4Xu6sOFmQJ iviweDEHSWxNcXEOFljbWsTM2qoPeXCoK3sfEwtqF6C8YgC4tOrVd8sybf4sOJdbK3xA bIsA== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5305+1YLDhSbf7sczQA3ROQdpFUUm/ZXAPn294x683m/bwQu8p8S F3ig+S8EoZobr/9qA4z05oieDm2AKBIIhw783kY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJzvsiqmHeYfytSG4IFxfbYtQs4Su+bemr588hVXhwL3htinrulltayluAEZhyVtQod/zjxDhZkvN3Kixuv/O64= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6102:390d:b0:32d:93ae:47d6 with SMTP id e13-20020a056102390d00b0032d93ae47d6mr8158381vsu.27.1652108677327; Mon, 09 May 2022 08:04:37 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87ee123jwq.fsf@gmail.com> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:231757 Archived-At: On Mon, 9 May 2022 at 14:39, Robert Pluim wrote: > > >>>>> On Mon, 9 May 2022 11:02:20 +0100, Phil Hudson said: > > Phil> Isn't that exactly the right place for declarative personal pre= ferences? > > Yes, but if a keymap were a defcustom, then the whole keymap would be > in your .emacs, and you would not receive any updates if the keymap > definition changed, since that affects the *default* defcustom value. True that, and I had not thought of it, but now that I have, I still don't see it as necessarily confounding. Doesn't the same objection (if it is one) apply to *every* defcustom? Is that not the risk that the user takes when they change any custom option, and the risk that every dev takes when they introduce a defcustom? > Now if you wanted to define a defcustom type for changing bindings in an > existing keymap, that=CA=BCs a different proposition (and we already have > define-key, so I=CA=BCm not so sure of the utility). That is exactly what I (think I) want. The utility is admittedly marginal but perhaps not trivial. It's the difference between a declarative approach, which I take to be intrinsically more accessible and intuitive, especially to non-programmers, versus an imperative one. It's essentially the case for custom options in general. I suppose my maximalist claim would be that mode-defined keymaps are self-evidently customize options that have somehow historically been accidentally overlooked. I'm not entirely convinced myself, though. Maybe we should just let it sit for a while. There's obviously something about it that doesn't *feel* right to people with deeper insight than I have.