bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Andrew Goh via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

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Hello GNU Emacs team,
Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads.
I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too.
Regards,
Andrew Goh S M


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bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh via "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text
editors" <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Hello GNU Emacs team,

Thank you for your interest in Emacs.

> Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without
> referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I

Do you have any concrete suggestions here?  We would of course like to
do things better, but we need concrete ideas to do that.

> understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?

M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if that's
what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.

> As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many
> languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with
> Lisp threads.

This is an ongoing discussion, and is anything but trivial to resolve.
I think we all agree it would be a good thing.  I would suggest you read
the recent discussion on emacs-devel about this.

One actionable thing today is to move forward with using lexical-binding
in more core libraries.  Anyone could help us with that by writing unit
tests for libraries in Emacs that are still using dynamic bindings.
That would give us confidence to move these libraries to
lexical-binding.  If you want to help, we would appreciate it.

> I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and
> maybe Julia too.

Do you mean here that you want to extend Emacs using Ruby and Julia
instead of Emacs Lisp?  I think that's a no-go, for various reasons.
One important issue for me is that it would fragment the Emacs
eco-system, and force users to learn many languages to extend any part
of Emacs effectively.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Michael Heerdegen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> > understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
>
> M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if
> that's what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.

I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
(meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.

Apart from that, I think the refcard offers a good overview.

Michael.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de> writes:

>> M-x runs the command `execute-extended-command'.  I'm not sure if
>> that's what you're asking.  It seems like I'm missing something.
>
> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.

Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.

If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
"S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg> writes:

> Hi Stefan,
> For the M-x command. All I wanted to know is what key combination on
> the keyboard that I should press, just as C-h, stands for pressing the
> Ctrl with the h key.

This information can be found in the tutorial (C-h t):

  Emacs commands generally involve the CONTROL key (sometimes labeled
  CTRL or CTL) or the META key (sometimes labeled EDIT or ALT).  Rather than
  write that in full each time, we'll use the following abbreviations:

   C-<chr>  means hold the CONTROL key while typing the character <chr>
  	  Thus, C-f would be: hold the CONTROL key and type f.
   M-<chr>  means hold the META or EDIT or ALT key down while typing <chr>.
  	  If there is no META, EDIT or ALT key, instead press and release the
  	  ESC key and then type <chr>.  We write <ESC> for the ESC key.

> As for extending Emacs with Ruby and Julia.  What I meant was to
> provide a Ruby and Julia programming mode.

As far as I can tell, there is already built-in support for Ruby. You
should just be able to open any Ruby file and be ready to go.
(There are many other useful Emacs packages for Ruby to find online.)

As for Julia, a quick search reveals this third-party package:

    https://github.com/JuliaEditorSupport/julia-emacs

You could install it from MELPA:

    https://www.melpa.org/

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Andrew,

Andrew Goh <andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg> writes:

> Hi Stefan,
> Thanks for telling me the meta key stands for ALT-whatever, and about Ruby and Julia on GNU Emacs.
> I think there is a need for a new (Emacs) Lisp programming guide, since the last book was written about 10 years ago.  It should start with the basics of ELisp and show how to use other programming language modes.
> Before I let you off, I would like to give these suggestions:
> a.  Give the GNU Emacs package the look and feel of IDEs such as SQLite Studio, jGrasp or     Eiffel Studio etc, with distinct database/file area, work area, and output area.
> b.  Add another toolbar to add functionality in GNU Emacs and replace some of the Meta-key     and Control-key commands.
> c.  Use the right mouse button for additional commands and functions too.
> Regards,
> Andrew Goh S M

Thanks, I have forwarded this to the bug tracker to make sure this is
seen by others than me.

We appreciate your feedback and interest in GNU Emacs.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

>> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
>> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.
>
> Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.
>
> If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
> "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)

I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the
refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics.

The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so
I'm closing this bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Eduardo Ochs]

Hi Andrew,

there are many people trying to make Emacs more user-friendly, and
experimenting with different ways to do that. Most of these attempts
are announced at Sacha's Emacs Weekly News:

  https://sachachua.com/blog/category/emacs-news/
  https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-tangents/

My (own) preferred way to do that is this one:

  http://angg.twu.net/index.html#eev
  https://github.com/edrx/eev#introduction

In eev people can open a kind of an online version of a Reference Card
by typing just M-2 M-j. It opens something that looks like this:

  http://angg.twu.net/eev-intros/find-emacs-keys-intro.html

and it is easy to define new (editable!) help pages.

Also, I think that the best way to get help is the IRC channel:

  https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsChannel

Cheers,
  Eduardo Ochs
  http://angg.twu.net/



On Tue, 19 May 2020 at 11:22, Andrew Goh via Bug reports for GNU
Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors <bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org>
wrote:
>
> Hello GNU Emacs team,
>
> Can you find a more user-friendly way of using GNU Emacs without referring to a two page landscape GNU Emacs Reference Card? I understand that C-h is control-h, but what is M-x for example?
>
> As for the ELisp language, well, now, concurrency is supported on many languages, could ELisp be updated to support concurrency fully with Lisp threads.
>
> I was also wondering if you can add language extensions for Ruby and maybe Julia too.
>
> Regards,
>
> Andrew Goh S M
>

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>>> I guess, the key, M-x.  The refcard assumes that people know what it
>>> (meta) is.  It would probably good to explain it.
>>
>> Right, okay.  If that's it, I agree that it should probably be added.
>>
>> If we do that, we might as well explain that "C-" stands for "Ctrl" and
>> "S-" stands for "Shift" while we're at it.  (If there's enough space.)
>
> I don't think the refcard is the place to explain these keys -- the
> refcard is for quick lookup when you know the basics.
>
> The tutorial explains all this stuff, and that's the correct place, so
> I'm closing this bug report.

I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already.

One thing caught my eye, namely this information:

    Starting Emacs
    To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs

This seems useless, for two reasons:
A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".

This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Michael Heerdegen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

>     Starting Emacs
>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>
> This seems useless, for two reasons:
> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".
>
> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.

I agree.

Michael.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I took a look at the refcards, and it is pretty full of stuff already.
>
> One thing caught my eye, namely this information:
>
>     Starting Emacs
>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>
> This seems useless, for two reasons:
> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".

Yeah, that's pretty useless.

> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.

That's true.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

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reopen 41403
tags 41403 - wontfix
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

>>     Starting Emacs
>>     To enter GNU Emacs 28, just type its name: emacs
>>
>> This seems useless, for two reasons:
>> A) The overwhelming majority of users will click an icon to start Emacs.
>> B) Any other users will already know to type "emacs".
>
> Yeah, that's pretty useless.
>
>> This leaves me wondering if putting a brief explanation of our strange
>> key conventions on there isn't a better use of space.
>
> That's true.

How about the attached patch?  I've checked it visually and it looks
okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert.

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From 18d00dd62f71be36e0c19bfde25e7a31649ed3bf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:46:44 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] New major mode with font-locking for etc/AUTHORS

* lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el: New file.
* lisp/files.el (auto-mode-alist): Use 'etc-authors-mode' for the
etc/AUTHORS file.
---
 lisp/files.el                      |  3 +-
 lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el | 99 ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
 2 files changed, 101 insertions(+), 1 deletion(-)
 create mode 100644 lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el

diff --git a/lisp/files.el b/lisp/files.el
index b113ff32f2..171b69e01e 100644
--- a/lisp/files.el
+++ b/lisp/files.el
@@ -3006,7 +3006,8 @@ auto-mode-alist
      ("\\.xcf\\'" . image-mode)
      ("\\.xmp\\'" . image-mode)
      ("\\.xwd\\'" . image-mode)
-     ("\\.yuv\\'" . image-mode)))
+     ("\\.yuv\\'" . image-mode)
+     ("emacs.*/etc/AUTHORS\\'" . etc-authors-mode)))
   "Alist of file name patterns vs corresponding major mode functions.
 Each element looks like (REGEXP . FUNCTION) or (REGEXP FUNCTION NON-NIL).
 \(NON-NIL stands for anything that is not nil; the value does not matter.)
diff --git a/lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el b/lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el
new file mode 100644
index 0000000000..0ef84d3d65
--- /dev/null
+++ b/lisp/textmodes/etc-authors-mode.el
@@ -0,0 +1,99 @@
+;;; etc-authors-mode.el --- font-locking for etc/AUTHORS  -*- lexical-binding: t; -*-
+
+;; Copyright (C) 2021 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
+
+;; Author: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
+;; Keywords: internal
+
+;; This program is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
+;; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
+;; the Free Software Foundation, either version 3 of the License, or
+;; (at your option) any later version.
+
+;; This program is distributed in the hope that it will be useful,
+;; but WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY; without even the implied warranty of
+;; MERCHANTABILITY or FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE.  See the
+;; GNU General Public License for more details.
+
+;; You should have received a copy of the GNU General Public License
+;; along with this program.  If not, see <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/>.
+
+;;; Commentary:
+
+;; Major mode to display the etc/AUTHORS file in the Emacs
+;; distribution.  Provides some basic font locking and not much else.
+
+;;; Code:
+
+(defgroup etc-authors-mode nil
+  "Display the \"etc/AUTHORS\" file from the Emacs distribution."
+  :version "28.1")
+
+(defface etc-authors-default '((t :inherit variable-pitch))
+  "Default face used to display the \"etc/AUTHORS\" file.
+See also `etc-authors-mode'."
+  :version "28.1")
+
+(defface etc-authors-author '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light))
+                    :foreground "midnight blue"
+                    :weight bold :height 1.05
+                    :inherit variable-pitch)
+                   (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark))
+                    :foreground "cyan"
+                    :weight bold :height 1.05
+                    :inherit variable-pitch)
+                   (((supports :weight bold) (supports :height 1.05))
+                    :weight bold :height 1.05
+                    :inherit variable-pitch)
+                   (((supports :weight bold))
+                    :weight bold :inherit variable-pitch)
+                   (t :inherit variable-pitch))
+  "Face used for the author in the \"etc/AUTHORS\" file.
+See also `etc-authors-mode'."
+  :version "28.1")
+
+(defface etc-authors-descriptor '((((class color) (min-colors 88) (background light))
+                        :foreground "sienna" :inherit variable-pitch)
+                       (((class color) (min-colors 88) (background dark))
+                        :foreground "peru" :inherit variable-pitch)
+                       (t :inherit variable-pitch))
+  "Face used for the description text in the \"etc/AUTHORS\" file.
+See also `etc-authors-mode'."
+  :version "28.1")
+
+(defface etc-authors-other-files '((t :inherit etc-authors-descriptor))
+  "Face used for the \"other files\" text in the \"etc/AUTHORS\" file.
+See also `etc-authors-mode'."
+  :version "28.1")
+
+(defvar etc-authors-mode-font-lock-keywords
+  `((,(rx bol (group (not (any blank "\n")) (+? (not (any ":" "\n")))) ":")
+     1 'etc-authors-author)
+    (,(rx (or "wrote"
+              (seq (? "and ") (or "co-wrote" "changed"))))
+     0 'etc-authors-descriptor)
+    (,(rx "and " (+ digit) " other files")
+     0 'etc-authors-other-files)
+    (,(rx bol (not space) (+ not-newline) eol)
+     0 'etc-authors-default)))
+
+(defun etc-authors-mode--hide-local-variables ()
+  "Hide local variables in \"etc/AUTHORS\".  Used by `etc-authors-mode'."
+  (narrow-to-region (point-min)
+                    (save-excursion
+                      (goto-char (point-min))
+                      (if (re-search-forward "^Local Variables:$" nil t)
+                          (progn (forward-line -1) (point))
+                        (point-max)))))
+
+;;;###autoload
+(define-derived-mode etc-authors-mode special-mode "Authors View"
+  "Major mode for viewing \"etc/AUTHORS\" from the Emacs distribution.
+Provides some basic font locking and not much else."
+  (setq-local font-lock-defaults
+              '(etc-authors-mode-font-lock-keywords nil nil ((?_ . "w"))))
+  (setq font-lock-multiline nil)
+  (etc-authors-mode--hide-local-variables))
+
+(provide 'etc-authors-mode)
+;;; etc-authors-mode.el ends here
-- 
2.30.2

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> How about the attached patch?  I've checked it visually and it looks
> okay to me, but I'm not exactly a TeX expert.
>
> From 18d00dd62f71be36e0c19bfde25e7a31649ed3bf Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Sun, 19 Sep 2021 15:46:44 +0200
> Subject: [PATCH] New major mode with font-locking for etc/AUTHORS

Wrong patch?  :-)

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

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Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Wrong patch?  :-)

Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.

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From 11225be055c682652236a49c8b481d53a1436e47 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2021 22:07:05 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] Add section to refcard explaining our keybinding notation

* etc/refcards/refcard.tex (Starting Emacs): Delete section.
(Key Binding Notation): New section.  (Bug#41403)
---
 etc/refcards/refcard.tex | 6 ++++--
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/etc/refcards/refcard.tex b/etc/refcards/refcard.tex
index f066dc93ea..bc057569a7 100644
--- a/etc/refcards/refcard.tex
+++ b/etc/refcards/refcard.tex
@@ -273,9 +273,11 @@
 
 \centerline{(for version \versionemacs)}
 
-\section{Starting Emacs}
+\section{Key Binding Notation}
 
-To enter GNU Emacs \versionemacs, just type its name: \kbd{emacs}
+In the Emacs key binding notation, \kbd{C-x}
+is \kbd{Ctrl+X}; \kbd{M-x} is usually \kbd{Alt+X}; \kbd{S-x} is
+\kbd{Shift+X}; and \kbd{C-M-x} is \kbd{Ctrl+Alt+X}, etc.
 
 \section{Leaving Emacs}
 
-- 
2.30.2

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.

Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
OK to me.  Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Michael Heerdegen]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> > Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.
>
> Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
> OK to me.

To me, too.  I would not uppercase the X in the "meaning" version
though, that may confuse some people.

> Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

For comparison, there is Sacha Chuas beginner's guide:

  https://sachachua.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/How-to-Learn-Emacs-v2-Large.png

It says that Meta can be that special apple key, dunno the name of it.

Michael.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
> > Yup.  I hope I managed to attach the correct one below.
>
> Indeed.  After managing to install the proper bits of texlive, it looks
> OK to me.  Are these the keys that's also used on Apple keyboards?

Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
"alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.

(Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
default.)

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Andreas Schwab]

On Sep 22 2021, Stefan Kangas wrote:

> (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
> ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
> default.)

I guess you have to ask Apple why they swapped the Alt and Cmd keys on
their keyboards.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, schwab@linux-m68k.org
GPG Key fingerprint = 7578 EB47 D4E5 4D69 2510  2552 DF73 E780 A9DA AEC1
"And now for something completely different."

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Andreas Schwab]

On Sep 22 2021, Mattias Engdegård wrote:

> I don't think they ever did. The left Command has always been to the right of the left Option (later also labelled alt).

That's exctly the problem.  What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt
key on ordinary keyboards.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SUSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
GPG Key fingerprint = 0196 BAD8 1CE9 1970 F4BE  1748 E4D4 88E3 0EEA B9D7
"And now for something completely different."

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Mattias Engdegård]

22 sep. 2021 kl. 20.01 skrev Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de>:

> That's exctly the problem.  What Apple calls the Option key, is the Alt
> key on ordinary keyboards.

But they never switched the keys that you claimed they did.
Apple have their own keyboard design tradition and while they later reconciled their layout with that from IBM, they didn't somehow take IBM's keyboard and make arbitrary changes for nefarious reasons.

There isn't necessarily a bijection between Mac and PC keys. Option mostly corresponds to today's AltGr (for input of more characters) but is also used to modify function keys and mouse clicks. Command was originally designed as a more principled variant of the conventional Control  key (ie, for function keystrokes), but better located and without the historical TTY control code baggage. Later on Control was added to Mac keyboards as well for use in terminal emulators and the like, and is today just another modifier.

From your point of view you may wish that company this-and-that would have made different decisions and so do I (most definitely), but history is what it is.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
> meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
> "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.

Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
> and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?

The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Alan Third]

On Wed, Sep 22, 2021 at 04:41:40PM +0200, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> (Many users move meta to the "cmd" key (⌘), because it is much more
> ergonomic on an Apple keyboard.  I have no idea why this isn't the
> default.)

Because we define NEXTstep shortcuts which are all on the command key,
so if we used it for meta as well they would get in each others way
quite quickly.

Plus the Mac's "option" is actually the same key as an IBM keyboard's
"alt", so when you plug in a PC keyboard alt and super do exactly what
you'd expect. In fact Apple keyboards even have "alt" written on the
option key.

And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case
a little. The keys are right next to each other.

-- 
Alan Third

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:

> And I think saying it's "much more ergonomic" is overstating the case
> a little. The keys are right next to each other.

Perhaps.  I wouldn't be surprised if I'm more sensitive to such issues
than the average user.

On the other hand, I also wouldn't be surprised if a not insignificant
fraction of our users find themselves in the same situation as me.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Stefan Kangas]

tags 41403 + fixed
close 41403 28.1
thanks

Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Control and shift matches exactly.  On my machine, the default key for
>> meta is the "alt" key (⌥), so I guess that matches as well:  the text
>> "alt" matches what is written on the keyboard.
>
> Then I think your patch makes complete sense, so please go ahead and push.

Thanks, pushed to master as commit bf0c072913.

bug#41403: A more user-friendly version of GNU Emacs

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2021 23:34:52 +0200
> Cc: Michael Heerdegen <michael_heerdegen@web.de>, andrewgoh95@yahoo.com.sg,
>  stefankangas@gmail.com, 41403@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > The ref card needs to fit in a fixed amount of space
> > and should not be too cluttered.  Could someone verify that?
> 
> The change removes as much as it adds, so it's fine.

No, it adds more than it removes:

 etc/refcards/refcard.tex | 6 ++++--
 1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 2 deletions(-)

However, I've generated the PDF file, and it still takes just 2 pages,
so this is okay.