From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:04 -0500 Message-ID: References: <87blabpy54.fsf@gnus.org> <87lf9eo3mq.fsf@gnus.org> <0d7924a2-d09f-e2d0-f0e7-6b5ee3a7a7f2@yandex.ru> <192e82f20f5deb690394@heytings.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="24303"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Alan Third , 1305@debbugs.gnu.org, Michael Welsh Duggan , jasonspiro4@gmail.com, monnier@iro.umontreal.ca, Lars Ingebrigtsen To: Gregory Heytings , Dmitry Gutov Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Wed Apr 21 15:12:17 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCeO-0006CB-2U for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 15:12:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:57118 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCeN-0000kZ-5L for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:12:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:60008) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCeB-0000jB-J1 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:45640) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCeA-0002Gr-Ag for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:12:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCeA-0006o5-5F for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:12:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:12:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 1305 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs Original-Received: via spool by 1305-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B1305.161901067326093 (code B ref 1305); Wed, 21 Apr 2021 13:12:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1305) by debbugs.gnu.org; 21 Apr 2021 13:11:13 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:57183 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCdN-0006mm-9a for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:11:13 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-pf1-f170.google.com ([209.85.210.170]:37713) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lZCdK-0006mZ-U5 for 1305@debbugs.gnu.org; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 09:11:11 -0400 Original-Received: by mail-pf1-f170.google.com with SMTP id y62so4954359pfg.4 for <1305@debbugs.gnu.org>; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:11:10 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=GLfMKmekzrmXFJqPQiWgWtIbtgGnpz+GmYRAsER9OtQ=; b=ujGa2xSnGWQ1n1jOSCINaNwR2dFewWskD4xQxb7ABCPQb5TqtCmHVid+bsbcbwWRXI sWs9KBlUk7zkt9lGfIatyeZVXBjLiZj88XWIC7QB9h6a/MG4ibcVkm6FZKCU/v4sh1SU 6hiwgHrLj7Bo1vv/x9bVa5Vig0W+IBo5FnsysDd+gruKa5XVJPcD6TAljyxcpRB9Wu53 kfLcXegCw2aSQmYXXpNyxSslwc9D23fJLbJyvv699azAGuo5f5tLieDywX5KylNI82SZ zW9OPzTNkLReEhDbJVVYU1mXEUpazY9aPs4GEsbdD8uhQ+owwPrxfLU5JPdy8Jn2NFeH Noxw== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM5320kQeeyMu0TIh7Ds8mrDDPDoiDxly21A/JyTmGjuxIMeOFYZDl rr0Cu00cBpR0dx8iqtIhfNA1Bl4XGQLCSbDrJt8= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJxcKBoF/10nt9nnF9dTUDlPpgi5g9tG2sTwPPyO8PlDE3N4w+Vl+u/YsLFALgfyg8yVGIOgCXW6C033SlzqqPA= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:2353:b029:25c:7dc5:a718 with SMTP id j19-20020a056a002353b029025c7dc5a718mr19499186pfj.58.1619010664990; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 06:11:04 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Wed, 21 Apr 2021 08:11:04 -0500 In-Reply-To: <192e82f20f5deb690394@heytings.org> X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:204605 Archived-At: Gregory Heytings writes: > Yes, it's perhaps a bit unfortunate that "visible-bell" is nil in this > case, but note that with visible-bell t and ring-bell-function ignore you > also do not have what you could expect. The semantics of visible-bell and > ring-bell-function are a bit unclear, but they cannot be fixed anymore > without introducing backward incompatible changes. I think this is a bit of a mess, indeed. I would be in favour of fixing this by adding one or more new variables with reasonable semantics. For example, why not have a variable called `alarm-bell' with these valid values: - a function call this function - `visual' Use a visual bell - t Ring the bell - nil Do nothing We should be able to do that while declaring the old variables obsolete, and preserving their semantics meanwhile, especially given that both `visible-bell' and `ring-bell-function' is nil by default. >> My #1 preference would be to make it all behave like (setq visible-bell >> t) on GNU/Linux does. This way we both get a proven behavior with no >> significant complaints, as well as consistency across platforms. > > I understand that you're accustomed to what visible-bell t does on > GNU/Linux, but frankly, its ugly. Ask their opinion to non-Emacs users > about that bell, I'd be surprised if they like it. That's a good point, IMO. But Dmitry's argument is also fairly compelling. For my money, the Doom idea, to flash the mode line in a different color, is the most good looking one. It is also hard to miss, and doesn't risk hiding or obscuring the minibuffer. I have used this for a couple of days and find it strictly better than both the default behavior on GNU/Linux with inverse video and flashing the minibuffer background. Did anyone have any objections to doing it that way?