bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Stefan Kangas]

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In emacs -Q, the `ns-use-proxy-icon' option (introduced in Emacs 27)
doesn't appear to have any effect on macOS 12.6.9.  See the attached
screenshot, and compare it to the one here:

https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/33680/how-to-remove-the-icon-in-the-titlebar

Changing the value to nil also seems to have no effect.

While we're at it, the documentation of this could be clearer; neither
the manual nor the docstring explain what a "proxy icon" even is.  I had
to search online, and find the above link, to understand what it is
supposed to do.

In addition, can this variable be set in a running Emacs?  The above
Stackoverflow link suggests that you might need to restart Emacs, but
AFAICT there is nothing about that in our documentation.

Am I missing something about how this is supposed to work?


In GNU Emacs 30.0.50 (build 1, x86_64-apple-darwin21.6.0, NS
 appkit-2113.60 Version 12.6.9 (Build 21G726)) of 2023-09-25 built on
 MY-MacBook-Pro
Repository revision: 22fe8955c21dbcc5c7c422a9917f77bf73794cc4
Repository branch: HEAD
Windowing system distributor 'Apple', version 10.3.2113
System Description:  macOS 12.6.9

Configured using:
 'configure --with-native-compilation'

Configured features:
ACL GIF GMP GNUTLS JPEG JSON LCMS2 LIBXML2 MODULES NATIVE_COMP NOTIFY
KQUEUE NS PDUMPER PNG SQLITE3 THREADS TIFF TOOLKIT_SCROLL_BARS
TREE_SITTER WEBP XIM ZLIB

Important settings:
  value of $LC_COLLATE: C
  value of $LC_CTYPE: sv_SE.UTF-8
  locale-coding-system: utf-8-unix

Major mode: Lisp Interaction

Minor modes in effect:
  tooltip-mode: t
  global-eldoc-mode: t
  eldoc-mode: t
  show-paren-mode: t
  electric-indent-mode: t
  mouse-wheel-mode: t
  tool-bar-mode: t
  menu-bar-mode: t
  file-name-shadow-mode: t
  global-font-lock-mode: t
  font-lock-mode: t
  blink-cursor-mode: t
  minibuffer-regexp-mode: t
  line-number-mode: t
  indent-tabs-mode: t
  transient-mark-mode: t
  auto-composition-mode: t
  auto-encryption-mode: t
  auto-compression-mode: t

Load-path shadows:
None found.

Features:
(shadow sort mail-extr compile comint ansi-osc ansi-color ring emacsbug
message mailcap yank-media puny dired dired-loaddefs rfc822 mml mml-sec
password-cache epa derived epg rfc6068 epg-config gnus-util
text-property-search mm-decode mm-bodies mm-encode mail-parse rfc2231
mailabbrev gmm-utils mailheader sendmail rfc2047 rfc2045 ietf-drums
mm-util mail-prsvr mail-utils time-date cl-print byte-opt comp comp-cstr
warnings icons subr-x rx cl-seq cl-macs gv cl-extra bytecomp
byte-compile thingatpt help-fns radix-tree help-mode cl-loaddefs cl-lib
rmc iso-transl tooltip cconv eldoc paren electric uniquify ediff-hook
vc-hooks lisp-float-type elisp-mode mwheel term/ns-win ns-win
ucs-normalize mule-util term/common-win touch-screen tool-bar dnd
fontset image regexp-opt fringe tabulated-list replace newcomment
text-mode lisp-mode prog-mode register page tab-bar menu-bar rfn-eshadow
isearch easymenu timer select scroll-bar mouse jit-lock font-lock syntax
font-core term/tty-colors frame minibuffer nadvice seq simple cl-generic
indonesian philippine cham georgian utf-8-lang misc-lang vietnamese
tibetan thai tai-viet lao korean japanese eucjp-ms cp51932 hebrew greek
romanian slovak czech european ethiopic indian cyrillic chinese
composite emoji-zwj charscript charprop case-table epa-hook
jka-cmpr-hook help abbrev obarray oclosure cl-preloaded button loaddefs
theme-loaddefs faces cus-face macroexp files window text-properties
overlay sha1 md5 base64 format env code-pages mule custom widget keymap
hashtable-print-readable backquote threads kqueue cocoa ns lcms2
multi-tty make-network-process native-compile emacs)

Memory information:
((conses 16 98657 9013) (symbols 48 8006 0) (strings 32 24246 1887)
 (string-bytes 1 712069) (vectors 16 17617)
 (vector-slots 8 357076 11706) (floats 8 32 44) (intervals 56 294 0)
 (buffers 992 13))

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bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Alan Third]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 02:20:51AM -0700, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> In emacs -Q, the `ns-use-proxy-icon' option (introduced in Emacs 27)
> doesn't appear to have any effect on macOS 12.6.9.  See the attached
> screenshot, and compare it to the one here:
> 
> https://emacs.stackexchange.com/questions/33680/how-to-remove-the-icon-in-the-titlebar
> 
> Changing the value to nil also seems to have no effect.

A quick search indicates that you may need to enable it in the system
Accessibility settings. Or possibly just mouse-over the space next to
the title.

I've never even seen a real machine running macOS > 10, so I've no
idea what Apple have done to the title bar.

> While we're at it, the documentation of this could be clearer; neither
> the manual nor the docstring explain what a "proxy icon" even is.  I had
> to search online, and find the above link, to understand what it is
> supposed to do.

I honestly don't know what it's for. I think you can maybe drag it to
other applications like you can drag icons from Finder?

IIRC the main driver for implementing that option was that we used to
have one single variable that controlled the text in the titlebar and
the proxy icon, and it was inflexible and behaved very differently
from other terms. So I separated it out and made it compatible.

> In addition, can this variable be set in a running Emacs?  The above
> Stackoverflow link suggests that you might need to restart Emacs, but
> AFAICT there is nothing about that in our documentation.

I'm pretty sure he only suggests restarting because he's setting it in
his .emacs file and doesn't realise he can run it right there.

-- 
Alan Third

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Gerd Möllmann]

Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:

> I've never even seen a real machine running macOS > 10, so I've no
> idea what Apple have done to the title bar.

It's still there in Ventura (macOS 13).  You might have to disable
Emacs' tool-bar-mode, though, to see it.

>> While we're at it, the documentation of this could be clearer; neither
>> the manual nor the docstring explain what a "proxy icon" even is.  I had
>> to search online, and find the above link, to understand what it is
>> supposed to do.
>
> I honestly don't know what it's for. I think you can maybe drag it to
> other applications like you can drag icons from Finder?

Yup.

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Alan Third]

On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 02:20:51AM -0700, Stefan Kangas wrote:
> 
> Am I missing something about how this is supposed to work?

Oh, I just remembered. The proxy icon represents a file, so if there's
no file on the filesystem, there's no icon.

So *scratch* will never display a proxy icon.
-- 
Alan Third

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Stefan Kangas]

Version: 29.2

Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> writes:

> Alan Third <alan@idiocy.org> writes:
>
>> I've never even seen a real machine running macOS > 10, so I've no
>> idea what Apple have done to the title bar.
>
> It's still there in Ventura (macOS 13).  You might have to disable
> Emacs' tool-bar-mode, though, to see it.
>
>>> While we're at it, the documentation of this could be clearer; neither
>>> the manual nor the docstring explain what a "proxy icon" even is.  I had
>>> to search online, and find the above link, to understand what it is
>>> supposed to do.
>>
>> I honestly don't know what it's for. I think you can maybe drag it to
>> other applications like you can drag icons from Finder?
>
> Yup.

Thanks, disabling tool-bar-mode and dragging it to another application
works here.

I've now installed a fix on emacs-29, which should hopefully make the
situation a bit more clear [1: 3ef259e28a8].  Let me know if you see
anything there that could be improved.

[1: 3ef259e28a8]: 2023-10-01 15:37:06 +0200
  Improve documentation of `ns-use-proxy-icon`
  https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=3ef259e28a84049fdb4499c9ad81ed2c3216f76b

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Gerd Möllmann]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I've now installed a fix on emacs-29, which should hopefully make the
> situation a bit more clear [1: 3ef259e28a8].  Let me know if you see
> anything there that could be improved.
>
> [1: 3ef259e28a8]: 2023-10-01 15:37:06 +0200
>   Improve documentation of `ns-use-proxy-icon`
>   https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=3ef259e28a84049fdb4499c9ad81ed2c3216f76b

The text sounds a bit like you can drag the icon to other applications,
only.

Actually, it is 100% (AFAIK) like dragging an icon from the Finder.  You
can drag the icon to the bin, a printer, the desktop, an application...
(Sometimes the results can be a bit surprising for the uniniatiated, for
example, when dragging moves the file to a different location :-)).

Alas, I can't find an official documentation of that feature.

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Stefan Kangas]

Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I've now installed a fix on emacs-29, which should hopefully make the
>> situation a bit more clear [1: 3ef259e28a8].  Let me know if you see
>> anything there that could be improved.
>>
>> [1: 3ef259e28a8]: 2023-10-01 15:37:06 +0200
>>   Improve documentation of `ns-use-proxy-icon`
>>   https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git/commit/?id=3ef259e28a84049fdb4499c9ad81ed2c3216f76b
>
> The text sounds a bit like you can drag the icon to other applications,
> only.
>
> Actually, it is 100% (AFAIK) like dragging an icon from the Finder.  You
> can drag the icon to the bin, a printer, the desktop, an application...
> (Sometimes the results can be a bit surprising for the uniniatiated, for
> example, when dragging moves the file to a different location :-)).
>
> Alas, I can't find an official documentation of that feature.

Does this sound better?

    The proxy icon can be used to drag the file associated with the
    current buffer to other applications, a printer, the desktop, etc.,
    in the same way you can from Finder.

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Gerd Möllmann]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Does this sound better?
>
>     The proxy icon can be used to drag the file associated with the
>     current buffer to other applications, a printer, the desktop, etc.,
>     in the same way you can from Finder.

👍

bug#66190: 30.0.50; ns-use-proxy-icon has no effect on macOS 12.6.9

[Stefan Kangas]

Gerd Möllmann <gerd.moellmann@gmail.com> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Does this sound better?
>>
>>     The proxy icon can be used to drag the file associated with the
>>     current buffer to other applications, a printer, the desktop, etc.,
>>     in the same way you can from Finder.
>
> 👍

Thanks, so I installed that.