From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Stefan Kangas Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#46627: [External] : bug#46627: [PATCH] Add new help command 'describe-command' Date: Fri, 19 Feb 2021 21:25:27 -0600 Message-ID: References: <835z2o4fes.fsf@gnu.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="14042"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen , "46627@debbugs.gnu.org" <46627@debbugs.gnu.org> To: Drew Adams , Eli Zaretskii Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Sat Feb 20 04:26:14 2021 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIuL-0003Vi-84 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Sat, 20 Feb 2021 04:26:13 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:47946 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIuK-00059l-AV for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:26:12 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:40698) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIuB-00059c-ST for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:26:03 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:39194) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIuA-0007oG-0s for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:26:03 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIu9-0006yi-TE for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:26:01 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Stefan Kangas Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:26:01 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 46627 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: patch Original-Received: via spool by 46627-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B46627.161379153926794 (code B ref 46627); Sat, 20 Feb 2021 03:26:01 +0000 Original-Received: (at 46627) by debbugs.gnu.org; 20 Feb 2021 03:25:39 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:50740 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lDItm-0006y6-ND for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:25:38 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-pg1-f174.google.com ([209.85.215.174]:36585) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1lDIti-0006xq-51 for 46627@debbugs.gnu.org; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 22:25:37 -0500 Original-Received: by mail-pg1-f174.google.com with SMTP id t26so6588500pgv.3 for <46627@debbugs.gnu.org>; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 19:25:34 -0800 (PST) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:in-reply-to:references:mime-version:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=SSFc195240wFiFqSr7Kn0zDRGCcz+JeRNXO8NV+c0Ks=; b=EpGxjWwko4O5TaG20iIldTxMB6R1iJ2ZBNXENoBMIysQ1FrvejSEpqUNnVSj8po4mw IwHoiR7RLzy1n90RuQ4I0sUSspYC8RaQGj03wYMSVwXK42Tkck22OsRYvuVo3sSX2SZP QOlody1o9iH027WtdrXPk12nDnpty0UBFMXcZIbLH6P9wwR1t6/U9Swjb7q8ogDL1fAa ViuKvdqnWUVhqLLT4CElvxH9hzXrPT4bkoL50daiSQK9kYZnPVxCycewOPr3+FH31Uq0 tjOYmdGLkY2mBeBzZ+9ku6ZePUM0BKsw/Cx1qY8Z6cdMtMM/lavwIcamhO/7MBEBoBv4 ZC/w== X-Gm-Message-State: AOAM531ON3T5o6Sn9k4Cpne70B1sj7QKW2qB4ITC+fxqRT7hYuOB+MUs KjywUFQsRZYOOwY2tJFlft3EXgcbS1gcb1sCj+k= X-Google-Smtp-Source: ABdhPJwYLNxJFFTSFuHGTS+z2EgOU+sLDMPg+5BVACLpd92IhFMpr142+q+/5FpACyJDduAdE96Jl8Mk7oieJ13MDak= X-Received: by 2002:a63:e108:: with SMTP id z8mr10986696pgh.363.1613791528415; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 19:25:28 -0800 (PST) Original-Received: from 753933720722 named unknown by gmailapi.google.com with HTTPREST; Fri, 19 Feb 2021 21:25:28 -0600 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:200392 Archived-At: Drew Adams writes: >> So, barring that, > > Why bar it, without trying? Just posing the question > should immediately let you know whether there is lots > of opposition (in emacs-devel, at least). If there > isn't, that's not proof that there won't be opposition > in the wider world, of course. But if there's lots of > opposition at least you'll feel better about binding > it to `C-h x'. If posed, the alternative should be > mentioned, including the binding of new key `C-h x'. Well, sure. Thanks for your support. But I don't think I will be able to muster the energy for another controversial thread at this point. (And Eli has expressed strong opposition to the idea already. We should probably avoid directing the attention of the project to an idea with low chances of success.) Perhaps we can all just learn to like `C-h x'. It's not too bad; it's just ugly and hard to remember. But OTOH, we already have plenty of keybindings like that -- it's not the end of the world. BTW, maybe `C-h x' is even easier for a new user to remember soon after learning `M-x'. Maybe users don't even think of "commands" but in terms of "which key does what"? So I don't know... maybe it's okay. The big upside is that it does save us from having to do a breaking change. Even if that breaking change is IMHO very small, and will probably be seen like an improvement by most, it might be upsetting to a subset of users. >> I'm still rather undecided on what's best here. >> Thoughts? > > IMO, this should be combined with the other changes > I mentioned in emacs-devel: > > 1. Add `describe-option', and bind it to, e.g., `C-h o'. > 2. Change `describe-function' and `describe-variable', > so that, with a prefix arg, they do `describe-command' > and `describe-option'. > > (In terms of doc, #2 lessens the need to advertise > those new commands.) Good ideas. I think `describe-option' is worth thinking about. As for putting it `C-h o', I'm not sure such a breaking change would be worth it: `describe-option' would be less important than `describe-command', and `describe-symbol' is more important than `describe-key-briefly'. I see your point regarding #2, but thinking about it a bit I think it is preferable to have an easier keybinding than `C-u C-h f' for commands. And if we have `describe-command' on `C-h x', perhaps the prefix argument to `describe-function' is just redundant?