bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[jxa127]

The "Save As" and "Help" buttons from the tool bar are no longer available in Emacs 24. This change was not identified in the News.

My attempts to replace them fail.

I make the following changes in tool-bar.el:
-------------------------------------------------------------- 
(defun tool-bar-setup ()
  (setq tool-bar-separator-image-expression
    (tool-bar--image-expression "separator"))
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'find-file "new" nil :label "New File"
     :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'menu-find-file-existing "open" nil
     :label "Open" :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'dired "diropen" nil :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'kill-this-buffer "close" nil :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'save-buffer "save" nil
     :label "Save")

 
;; ---> I add the ?Save As? button here:
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'write-file "saveas" nil
     :label "Save as")

 
(define-key-after (default-value 'tool-bar-map) [separator-1] menu-bar-separator)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'undo "undo" nil)
(define-key-after (default-value 'tool-bar-map) [separator-2] menu-bar-separator)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu (lookup-key menu-bar-edit-menu [cut])
     "cut" nil :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu (lookup-key menu-bar-edit-menu [copy])
     "copy" nil :vert-only t)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu (lookup-key menu-bar-edit-menu [paste])
     "paste" nil :vert-only t)
(define-key-after (default-value 'tool-bar-map) [separator-3] menu-bar-separator)
(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'isearch-forward "search"
     nil :label "Search" :vert-only t)
;;(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'ispell-buffer "spell")
;; There's no icon appropriate for News and we need a command rather
;; than a lambda for Read Mail.
;;(tool-bar-add-item-from-menu 'compose-mail "mail/compose")

 
;; ---> I uncomment the help button here:
;; Help button on a tool bar is rather non-standard...
(let ((tool-bar-map (default-value 'tool-bar-map)))
     (tool-bar-add-item "help" (lambda ()
     (interactive)
     (popup-menu menu-bar-help-menu))
          'help
         :help "Pop up the Help menu"))
)
-------------------------------------------------------------- 
I save tool-bar.el, compile it to tool-bar.elc and then restart Emacs, but the buttons are not there.

 
I can evaluate portions of tool-bar.el to make the button appear during one session, but they will not appear at start-up.

 
Thank you,

 
Drew Ames

bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Glenn Morris]

jxa127@verizon.net wrote:

> I save tool-bar.el, compile it to tool-bar.elc and then restart Emacs,
> but the buttons are not there.

This file is dumped into the Emacs executable, so you would need to
rebuild Emacs with your changes. I imagine it would be much simpler to
just add the buttons in your init file. I don't use the tool-bar and
have no real opinion on what buttons should be there; but "Help" seems
too general, rarely used, and hence a waste of space to me. Same with
"save as" I guess.

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[jxa127]

On 11/02/12, Glenn Morris<rgm@gnu.org> wrote:

>jxa127@verizon.net wrote:
>
>> I save tool-bar.el, compile it to tool-bar.elc and then restart Emacs,
>> but the buttons are not there.
>
>This file is dumped into the Emacs executable, so you would need to
>rebuild Emacs with your changes. I imagine it would be much simpler to
>just add the buttons in your init file. I don't use the tool-bar and
>have no real opinion on what buttons should be there; but "Help" seems
>too general, rarely used, and hence a waste of space to me. Same with
>"save as" I guess.

I see your point, however the fact remains that this is a regression from Emacs 23 -- and a seemingly arbitrary one at that -- that wasn't mentioned in the NEWS. 
 
I get that "real" Emacs users don't use the tool bar (or the menu bar, for that matter), but I've been using Emacs extensively for seven years now and still find uses for the tool-bar. "Save As" is for me exceptionally useful.
 
Thanks for the tip that I can recompile Emacs with my changes. I will do that, if necessary. 
 
I'd prefer though, that the buttons go back onto the tool bar be default. There's seemingly no good reason to hobble the tool bar by removing them, and no harm in keeping them.


 
I understand that I can add them to my init file, but the buttons don't show up in the order that I would like them to be on the tool bar. It is also a shame to add things to my init file that weren't needed before. The last several releases of Emacs have caused me to remove items from my init file because they were no longer needed. I'd hate to reverse that trend. 
 
Regards,
 
Drew Ames

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:15:00 -0500 (CDT)
> From: jxa127@verizon.net
> Cc: 12787@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> On 11/02/12, Glenn Morris<rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> >jxa127@verizon.net wrote:
> >
> >> I save tool-bar.el, compile it to tool-bar.elc and then restart Emacs,
> >> but the buttons are not there.
> >
> >This file is dumped into the Emacs executable, so you would need to
> >rebuild Emacs with your changes. I imagine it would be much simpler to
> >just add the buttons in your init file. I don't use the tool-bar and
> >have no real opinion on what buttons should be there; but "Help" seems
> >too general, rarely used, and hence a waste of space to me. Same with
> >"save as" I guess.
> 
> I see your point, however the fact remains that this is a regression from Emacs 23 -- and a seemingly arbitrary one at that -- that wasn't mentioned in the NEWS. 

What is a regression?  tool-bar.el was always preloaded and dumped
into the Emacs executable.  There's no change here.

> I get that "real" Emacs users don't use the tool bar (or the menu bar, for that matter), but I've been using Emacs extensively for seven years now and still find uses for the tool-bar. "Save As" is for me exceptionally useful.

Well, those "real" users are those who decided to code the tool bar
and the menu bar, and to have it by default in Emacs.  So I think this
is misdirected.

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Drew Adams]

> > I've been using Emacs extensively for seven years now
> > and still find uses for the tool-bar.  "Save As" is for
> > me exceptionally useful.
> 
> Well, those "real" users are those who decided to code the tool bar
> and the menu bar, and to have it by default in Emacs.  So I think this
> is misdirected.

Tossing some tool-bar icons because the tool bar had become too crowded was a
quick workaround, but not a real solution.

Ultimately, what tool-bar entries to include should be a user choice (and it
should be easy to choose/configure).  Some common GUIs do this:

1. Let users choose the size of the icons used (e.g. small, medium, large).

2. Let users choose (easily) which tool-bar entries to show, including for
different contexts (i.e., modes, for Emacs).

When I look for the user options available for customizing the tool bar, I find
only these: `tool-bar-max-label-size' and `tool-bar-style'.  And the latter
option affects only the GTK+ toolkit (even though the option is available in
non-GTK+ Emacs versions, for some reason).

I don't use the tool bar, and I imagine that few of those who might be able to
contribute to improving it actually use it.  That might explain the primitive
state, but not a satisfactory answer for a user who expects the kind of
flexibility s?he sees in other apps.

bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Glenn Morris]

jxa127@verizon.net wrote:

> I see your point, however the fact remains that this is a regression
> from Emacs 23 -- and a seemingly arbitrary one at that -- that wasn't
> mentioned in the NEWS.

The motivation is in this thread:
http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-11/msg00701.html

Presumably no-one thought it was NEWSworthy, since it is self-evident.
We can't go back in time and add it now.

> I'd prefer though, that the buttons go back onto the tool bar be
> default.

Seems unlikely to me.

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[jxa127]

>On 11/02/12, Glenn Morris<rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>
>jxa127@verizon.net wrote:
>
>> I see your point, however the fact remains that this is a regression
>> from Emacs 23 -- and a seemingly arbitrary one at that -- that wasn't
>> mentioned in the NEWS.
>
>The motivation is in this thread:
>http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2010-11/msg00701.html



 
Thank you for pointing me to the link. That helps explain the change. I don't agree with the assertion that "Save As" is left off of most toolbars. Even when it is, though, it is easy to add back on -- something that is not true with Emacs. 
 
>
>Presumably no-one thought it was NEWSworthy, since it is self-evident.



 
I don't know about other users, but I look to the NEWS to explain changes. It was self-evident that the change was made, but not why the change was made. 
 
>We can't go back in time and add it now.

 
Understood. I wasn't asking for that.

>
>> I'd prefer though, that the buttons go back onto the tool bar be
>> default.
>
>Seems unlikely to me.
 
Why not?
 
Thanks,
 
Drew Ames
 
 

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Drew Adams]

> I don't know about other users, but I look to the NEWS to 
> explain changes. It was self-evident that the change was 
> made, but not why the change was made. 

IMO, the NEWS should cover user-visible changes, and that includes changes like
this one.  OK, let's assume this omission was not intentional and it just fell
through the cracks.  Too bad.

bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Glenn Morris]

jxa127@verizon.net wrote:

> Thank you for pointing me to the link. That helps explain the change.
> I don't agree with the assertion that "Save As" is left off of most
> toolbars.

Could you name some applications that have it there by default?
If I start up eg "gedit" it is not there, and I see no way to add it
(I don't normally use gedit though). The gedit toolbar looks much the
same as Emacs 24's. I imagine this consistency with other applications
was the motivation for the changes.

The "help" button seems pointless to me. It just does exactly the same
as clicking the "help" menu, which is a few pixels away. I don't expect
a significant number of people to have tool-bar on and menu-bar off.
Every other tool-bar button in Emacs 23 is for an action that does not
correspond to simply selecting a top-level menu.

>  Even when it is, though, it is easy to add back on -- something that
> is not true with Emacs.

You could certainly argue that the Emacs toolbar should be easier to
customize. Drag'n'drop seems to be the friendly way. I think that is a
different bug report though.

bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[Glenn Morris]

Since nobody else has spoken up in favour of bringing these two icons back,
I am closing this. Do feel free to reply with more info though.

Glenn Morris wrote:

> Could you name some applications that have it there by default?
> If I start up eg "gedit" it is not there, and I see no way to add it
> (I don't normally use gedit though). The gedit toolbar looks much the
> same as Emacs 24's. I imagine this consistency with other applications
> was the motivation for the changes.
>
> The "help" button seems pointless to me. It just does exactly the same
> as clicking the "help" menu, which is a few pixels away. I don't expect
> a significant number of people to have tool-bar on and menu-bar off.
> Every other tool-bar button in Emacs 23 is for an action that does not
> correspond to simply selecting a top-level menu.

bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[jxa127]

On 11/02/12, Eli Zaretskii<eliz@gnu.org> wrote:

>> Date: Fri, 02 Nov 2012 14:15:00 -0500 (CDT)
>> From: jxa127@verizon.net
>> Cc: 12787@debbugs.gnu.org
>> 
>> On 11/02/12, Glenn Morris<rgm@gnu.org> wrote:
>> 
> >jxa127@verizon.net wrote:
> >
> >> I save tool-bar.el, compile it to tool-bar.elc and then restart Emacs,
> >> but the buttons are not there.
> >
> >This file is dumped into the Emacs executable, so you would need to
> >rebuild Emacs with your changes. I imagine it would be much simpler to
> >just add the buttons in your init file. I don't use the tool-bar and
> >have no real opinion on what buttons should be there; but "Help" seems
> >too general, rarely used, and hence a waste of space to me. Same with
> >"save as" I guess.
>> 
>> I see your point, however the fact remains that this is a regression from Emacs 23 -- and a seemingly arbitrary one at that -- that wasn't mentioned in the NEWS. 
>
>What is a regression? tool-bar.el was always preloaded and dumped
>into the Emacs executable. There's no change here.

You have to go back to the original message. The regression is the loss of those two buttons from the tool bar. 

>> I get that "real" Emacs users don't use the tool bar (or the menu bar, for that matter), but I've been using 
>>Emacs extensively for seven years now and still find uses for the tool-bar. "Save As" is for me exceptionally useful.
>
>Well, those "real" users are those who decided to code the tool bar
>and the menu bar, and to have it by default in Emacs. So I think this
>is misdirected.


 
I'm sorry, but I don't get your statement. I'm fully aware of who is making the decisions, and I'm corresponding with them right now.
 
A few years ago, when I posted about a bug in Emacs 23 on the menu bar, I got a response that started the same way, "I don't use the menu bar, but ..."
 
In that instance, the problem was resolved. I had hoped for the same consideration this time.
 
In short, if you don't use the tool bar, then why not take input from somebody who does?
 
If this question _should_ not be directed to those who make this decision, then to whom should I direct it?

Thank you for your consideration,
 
-Drew Ames

bug#12787: RE: bug#12787: Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs24 -- Save As and Help no longer available

[jxa127]

On 11/02/12, Drew Adams<drew.adams@oracle.com> wrote:

>> I don't know about other users, but I look to the NEWS to 
>> explain changes. It was self-evident that the change was 
>> made, but not why the change was made. 
>
>IMO, the NEWS should cover user-visible changes, and that includes changes like
>this one. OK, let's assume this omission was not intentional and it just fell
>through the cracks. Too bad.

Right. The reson I brought up the NEWS is that the last time I submitted a bug report 
regarding a change, the fact that it was not in the NEWS was part of the criteria for 
determining whether or not the change was deliberate.


 
I get that things fall through the cracks. I'm just trying to submit a clear, complete bug report. 
 
Thanks, all, for the discussion and consideration of my bug submission.
 
Regards,
 
Drew Ames

bug#12787: closed (Re: bug#12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available)

[Drew Ames]

On 11/24/2012 01:52 PM, GNU bug Tracking System wrote:
> Your bug report
>
> #12787: Toolbar regression from Emacs 23 to Emacs 24 -- Save As and Help no longer available
>
> which was filed against the emacs package, has been closed.
>
> The explanation is attached below, along with your original report.
> If you require more details, please reply to 12787@debbugs.gnu.org.
>
That's fine. I like the earlier suggestion to submit a new bug report 
asking for an enhancement to make the tool bar easier to customize.

Thank you,

Drew Ames