bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

Running emacsclient without specifying a file results in:

emacsclient: file name or argument required
Try 'emacsclient --help' for more information

https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Entering-Emacs.html#Entering-Emacs

Gives the impression *scratch* should show up instead. (though probably
only if running 'emacs' regularly.)



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bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[Noam Postavsky]

On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:03 PM, James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> wrote:
>
> Running emacsclient without specifying a file results in:
>
> emacsclient: file name or argument required
> Try 'emacsclient --help' for more information
>
> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Entering-Emacs.html#Entering-Emacs
>
> Gives the impression *scratch* should show up instead. (though probably
> only if running 'emacs' regularly.)

Which part gives you that impression? Or in other words, what do you
want to change?

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

"Emacs simply displays those files; otherwise, it displays a buffer named *scratch*, which can be used to evaluate Emacs Lisp expressions interactively."

I think it’s preferable it behaves just like regular ‘emacs’ does, opening a *scratch* buffer as a fallback. 

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 7:45 AM, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jun 27, 2017 at 10:03 PM, James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Running emacsclient without specifying a file results in:
>> 
>> emacsclient: file name or argument required
>> Try 'emacsclient --help' for more information
>> 
>> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Entering-Emacs.html#Entering-Emacs
>> 
>> Gives the impression *scratch* should show up instead. (though probably
>> only if running 'emacs' regularly.)
> 
> Which part gives you that impression? Or in other words, what do you
> want to change?

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[Ken Brown]

On 6/28/2017 11:00 AM, James Nguyen wrote:
> "Emacs simply displays those files; otherwise, it displays a buffer named *scratch*, which can be used to evaluate Emacs Lisp expressions interactively."
> 
> I think it’s preferable it behaves just like regular ‘emacs’ does, opening a *scratch* buffer as a fallback.

I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of emacsclient:

$ emacsclient --help
Usage: emacsclient [OPTIONS] FILE...
Tell the Emacs server to visit the specified files.


See 
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Emacs-Server.html#Emacs-Server 
for typical use cases.

Ken

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

At the very least, I understand how to use emacsclient (e.g. to connect to a running emacs server).

I am just wondering if it makes sense to give an error message instead of `falling back` the way ‘emacs’ does. (scratch buffer or title screen (though a title screen might not make sense assuming the server/emacs instance was already started)).

I’ve also been told emacsclient used to be able to handle the ‘no file arguments’ case, although I can’t confirm if this is true or not.

https://www.reddit.com/r/emacs/comments/45mtdz/can_someone_explain_why_emacsclient_requires_a/

Shows 1 or 2 users being able to use emacsclient without passing a file argument.

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 10:03 AM, Ken Brown <kbrown@cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 6/28/2017 11:00 AM, James Nguyen wrote:
>> "Emacs simply displays those files; otherwise, it displays a buffer named *scratch*, which can be used to evaluate Emacs Lisp expressions interactively."
>> I think it’s preferable it behaves just like regular ‘emacs’ does, opening a *scratch* buffer as a fallback.
> 
> I think you're misunderstanding the purpose of emacsclient:
> 
> $ emacsclient --help
> Usage: emacsclient [OPTIONS] FILE...
> Tell the Emacs server to visit the specified files.
> 
> 
> See https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/Emacs-Server.html#Emacs-Server for typical use cases.
> 
> Ken

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[Noam Postavsky]

On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 1:22 PM, James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> wrote:
>
> I’ve also been told emacsclient used to be able to handle the ‘no file arguments’ case, although I can’t confirm if this is true or not.

Does 'emacsclient -c' or 'emacsclient -t' not work for you?

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

Those work for me but -c creates a new gui frame and -t opens in terminal.

Usually I have a gui client up already and $ emacsclient $FILE is the only choice that opens it in that current frame.


> On Jun 28, 2017, at 10:35 AM, Noam Postavsky <npostavs@users.sourceforge.net> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jun 28, 2017 at 1:22 PM, James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> I’ve also been told emacsclient used to be able to handle the ‘no file arguments’ case, although I can’t confirm if this is true or not.
> 
> Does 'emacsclient -c' or 'emacsclient -t' not work for you?

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[npostavs]

James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> writes:

> Those work for me but -c creates a new gui frame and -t opens in terminal.

Oh, all the responses I saw in the reddit thread you linked were using
-c or -t, so I thought that's what you wanted.

> Usually I have a gui client up already and $ emacsclient $FILE is the
> only choice that opens it in that current frame.

But it sounds like you're actually after something like

    emacsclient --eval '(select-frame-set-input-focus (car (frame-list)))'

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

Hmnn, yeah sorry for not expounding earlier.

That snip you sent doesn’t work the way I want. It just opens the Gui Emacs up without opening a new scratch buffer.

At this point, my takeaway is that we think this is 1. not a bug and 2. unlikely to have the default change (emacsclient behaving similarly in spirit to emacs)

I will just have to write a bash function that wraps emacsclient and check for the file arg (or lackof) myself.

Thanks Noam for the help.

> On Jun 28, 2017, at 6:13 PM, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net wrote:
> 
> James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> writes:
> 
>> Those work for me but -c creates a new gui frame and -t opens in terminal.
> 
> Oh, all the responses I saw in the reddit thread you linked were using
> -c or -t, so I thought that's what you wanted.
> 
>> Usually I have a gui client up already and $ emacsclient $FILE is the
>> only choice that opens it in that current frame.
> 
> But it sounds like you're actually after something like
> 
>    emacsclient --eval '(select-frame-set-input-focus (car (frame-list)))'

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[npostavs]

tags 27511 notabug
close 27511
quit

James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> writes:

> That snip you sent doesn’t work the way I want. It just opens the Gui
> Emacs up without opening a new scratch buffer.

Oh you want a *new* scratch buffer?  As in, you end up with multiple
scratch buffers if you run emacsclient several times?

> At this point, my takeaway is that we think this is 1. not a bug and
> 2. unlikely to have the default change (emacsclient behaving similarly
> in spirit to emacs)
>
> I will just have to write a bash function that wraps emacsclient and
> check for the file arg (or lackof) myself.

Yeah, changing the defaults is tricky because you have to get a lot of
people to agree on what the new default should be.  Although it seems to
me that the current default of just printing an error message is not
especially useful for anyone...

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[Ken Brown]

On 6/29/2017 8:32 AM, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net wrote> James Nguyen 
<jamesn@fastmail.com> writes:
> 
>> That snip you sent doesn’t work the way I want. It just opens the Gui
>> Emacs up without opening a new scratch buffer.
> 
> Oh you want a *new* scratch buffer?  As in, you end up with multiple
> scratch buffers if you run emacsclient several times?
> 
>> At this point, my takeaway is that we think this is 1. not a bug and
>> 2. unlikely to have the default change (emacsclient behaving similarly
>> in spirit to emacs)
>>
>> I will just have to write a bash function that wraps emacsclient and
>> check for the file arg (or lackof) myself.
> 
> Yeah, changing the defaults is tricky because you have to get a lot of
> people to agree on what the new default should be.  Although it seems to
> me that the current default of just printing an error message is not
> especially useful for anyone...

The purpose of emacsclient is to contact an emacs server and give it 
some action to perform (visit a file, open a new frame, evaluate some 
lisp, ...).  If you run emacsclient with no arguments, you're not 
specifying any action.  I can think of two possibilities for what 
emacsclient should do in that case: (a) Silently do nothing.  (b) Print 
an error message.  I would find it very surprising if emacsclient were 
to tell the server to create a new buffer when I've specified no action.

Ken

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

@Noam
I’d like it to switch to the scratch buffer if anything and to create a new one if it doesn’t exist. I should be able to jigger something up with the —eval option on emacsclient though.

Thanks.

@Ken

Why would you find it surprising? Personally, I like the DWIM style of many emacs commands. If I ever type ‘emacsclient’ and press <RET>, DWIM suggests I’m trying to connect to an instance of an Emacs server.

I don’t think I’d ever expect an error message to show up in that case. Imagine typing ‘vim’ and being forced to specify a file. (It’s not lost on my you’ve indicated they have separate purposes.)

At the very least, connecting to the server and doing nothing (similar to what Noam posted a few messages back) should be similar in spirit to what you’ve just said.


> On Jun 29, 2017, at 7:11 AM, Ken Brown <kbrown@cornell.edu> wrote:
> 
> On 6/29/2017 8:32 AM, npostavs@users.sourceforge.net wrote> James Nguyen <jamesn@fastmail.com> writes:
>>> That snip you sent doesn’t work the way I want. It just opens the Gui
>>> Emacs up without opening a new scratch buffer.
>> Oh you want a *new* scratch buffer?  As in, you end up with multiple
>> scratch buffers if you run emacsclient several times?
>>> At this point, my takeaway is that we think this is 1. not a bug and
>>> 2. unlikely to have the default change (emacsclient behaving similarly
>>> in spirit to emacs)
>>> 
>>> I will just have to write a bash function that wraps emacsclient and
>>> check for the file arg (or lackof) myself.
>> Yeah, changing the defaults is tricky because you have to get a lot of
>> people to agree on what the new default should be.  Although it seems to
>> me that the current default of just printing an error message is not
>> especially useful for anyone...
> 
> The purpose of emacsclient is to contact an emacs server and give it some action to perform (visit a file, open a new frame, evaluate some lisp, ...).  If you run emacsclient with no arguments, you're not specifying any action.  I can think of two possibilities for what emacsclient should do in that case: (a) Silently do nothing.  (b) Print an error message.  I would find it very surprising if emacsclient were to tell the server to create a new buffer when I've specified no action.
> 
> Ken
> 

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[Ken Brown]

On 6/29/2017 12:48 PM, James Nguyen wrote:
> @Noam
> I’d like it to switch to the scratch buffer if anything and to create a new one if it doesn’t exist. I should be able to jigger something up with the —eval option on emacsclient though.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> @Ken
> 
> Why would you find it surprising? Personally, I like the DWIM style of many emacs commands. If I ever type ‘emacsclient’ and press <RET>, DWIM suggests I’m trying to connect to an instance of an Emacs server.

What does it mean to connect to a server without asking the server to do 
something?  Does DWIM suggest an obvious guess?  One possible guess 
would be that you forgot to specify a file, in which case an error 
message (or at least a query) is precisely the right thing.  Maybe there 
are other possible guesses, but I personally wouldn't expect emacsclient 
to guess that I want the server to do something involving the scratch 
buffer.

> I don’t think I’d ever expect an error message to show up in that case. Imagine typing ‘vim’ and being forced to specify a file. (It’s not lost on my you’ve indicated they have separate purposes.)

vim is not a client connecting to a server.  A better analogy would be a 
mail client/server pair.  What would you expect a mail client to do if 
you ask it to connect to an outgoing mail server but you don't specify a 
message to send?  I would expect either (a) the client should do nothing 
or (b) the client should issue an error message.

> At the very least, connecting to the server and doing nothing (similar to what Noam posted a few messages back) should be similar in spirit to what you’ve just said.

Noam suggested that you should use 'emacsclient -c' or 'emacsclient -t', 
neither of which does nothing; they each create a new frame.  AFAIU, he 
didn't suggest that emacsclient should try to guess which of these you 
want if you don't specify either.

As to "connecting to the server and doing nothing", how is this 
different from just "doing nothing"?  I think doing nothing would be 
acceptable, but I personally find the current behavior to be more 
friendly (do nothing and explain why).  In the mail example, what would 
it mean for a mail client to connect to a mail server and do nothing?

Anyway, it might be time for us to agree to disagree.

Ken

bug#27511: 26.0.50; emacsclient requires file argument

[James Nguyen]

>> What does it mean to connect to a server without asking the server to do something?  Does DWIM suggest an obvious guess?  One possible guess would be that you forgot to specify a file, in which case an error message (or at least a query) is precisely the right thing.  Maybe there are other possible guesses, but I personally wouldn't expect emacsclient to guess that I want the server to do something involving the scratch buffer.

`Anything` but failing and throwing an error message would be a 'sane default' (in my opinion).

>> vim is not a client connecting to a server.  A better analogy would be a mail client/server pair.  What would you expect a mail client to do if you ask it to connect to an outgoing mail server but you don't specify a message to send?  I would expect either (a) the client should do nothing or (b) the client should issue an error message.

Sure, a mail client/server is a good analogy. If I click 'mail app' in OSX, it opens up to a list of my emails/inbox (and even queries for mail!) despite myself not micromanaging that fact.

>> Noam suggested that you should use 'emacsclient -c' or 'emacsclient -t', neither of which does nothing; they each create a new frame.  AFAIU, he didn't suggest that emacsclient should try to guess which of these you want if you don't specify either.

This was what I was referring to.

  emacsclient --eval '(select-frame-set-input-focus (car (frame-list)))'

>> Anyway, it might be time for us to agree to disagree.

Agreed.