From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#24902: 25.1; C-x = for Unicode Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 18:29:22 +0100 Message-ID: References: <87a6fl5w11.fsf@gnus.org> <14F24EE3-901E-4622-8210-6C4F2134E9BA@acm.org> <87czkh1jqo.fsf@gnus.org> <87pmoh3xdk.fsf@gnus.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 14.0 \(3654.120.0.1.13\)) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="13328"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: Ulrich Windl , 24902@debbugs.gnu.org To: Lars Ingebrigtsen Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Mon Jan 24 19:25:11 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nC41f-00038I-Dl for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 19:25:11 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:54708 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nC41e-0006mX-C7 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 13:25:10 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:58518) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nC3AS-0006gT-Gc for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:30:12 -0500 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.43]:52733) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_128_GCM_SHA256:128) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nC3AJ-0001BS-BM for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:30:05 -0500 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nC3AJ-0006Io-3l for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:30:03 -0500 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Mattias =?UTF-8?Q?Engdeg=C3=A5rd?= Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:30:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 24902 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: wontfix Original-Received: via spool by 24902-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B24902.164304537624163 (code B ref 24902); Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:30:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 24902) by debbugs.gnu.org; 24 Jan 2022 17:29:36 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:45636 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nC39r-0006He-Ll for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:29:35 -0500 Original-Received: from mail1453c50.megamailservers.eu ([91.136.14.53]:44136 helo=mail266c50.megamailservers.eu) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1nC39o-0006HK-MW for 24902@debbugs.gnu.org; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 12:29:35 -0500 X-Authenticated-User: mattiase@bredband.net DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=megamailservers.eu; s=maildub; t=1643045365; bh=fWmK4pgYaGgZpZTtjbqJxoAg/ksf5z0KJRG89hZ4VJg=; h=Subject:From:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:References:To:From; b=E+rUXGeVbH/yw1SIQi0DJUi24VMsG/uY0FVZ8J9WR6VFeWKBzCFZpDcFMeuoqayOh YQvyXmKGtr/cjTX6fWPUBlGx6WQnsmUkbQ9K5+oR1iysE/2TgYDG9GNlQukhJvmGYi vswwidNRUMTya4T7Wiv/b5TURm9EzzDtEhZTwDs4= Feedback-ID: mattiase@acm.or Original-Received: from smtpclient.apple (c-b952e353.032-75-73746f71.bbcust.telenor.se [83.227.82.185]) (authenticated bits=0) by mail266c50.megamailservers.eu (8.14.9/8.13.1) with ESMTP id 20OHTMR4007618; Mon, 24 Jan 2022 17:29:24 +0000 In-Reply-To: <87pmoh3xdk.fsf@gnus.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3654.120.0.1.13) X-CTCH-RefID: str=0001.0A742F18.61EEE1F5.0048, ss=1, re=0.000, recu=0.000, reip=0.000, cl=1, cld=1, fgs=0 X-CTCH-VOD: Unknown X-CTCH-Spam: Unknown X-CTCH-Score: 0.000 X-CTCH-Flags: 0 X-CTCH-ScoreCust: 0.000 X-Origin-Country: SE X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18 Precedence: list X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "bug-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.bugs:225088 Archived-At: 24 jan. 2022 kl. 17.35 skrev Lars Ingebrigtsen : > I think using `format-spec' would allow users to tweak this more > extensively, which they probably want to, if they care enough to = change > it at all. Thanks for taking a look! I had a go at format-spec, and don't think = it's appropriate. Let me explain: 1. It doesn't fit the problem very well: neither the traditional nor the = new format are easily expressed with format-spec since they are = conditional in several ways (fields or strings that appear depending on = the circumstances). In contrast, conditions are easily expressible in = Lisp. 2. Even if we went through the contortions to make formats expressible = in format-spec, it still wouldn't be very easy to do so, especially = compared to choosing a ready-made format. For more advanced = customisation, Lisp is probably preferable. 3. As any designer knows, customisability is a cop-out: it's an = abdication of responsibility. The user can now conveniently be blamed = for any perceived shortcoming. Conversely, being forced to think and = make hard choices is much of what design is about, and users like when = it's done for them in a competent way. Customisability is a minefield: it is often motivated by vague = hypotheticals like "what if someone wants to..." when the right question = to ask is instead what a good design would be and what preferences, if = any, could reasonably differ. Let's look at it this way: what would you personally want the format to = be, if you did not need to think about anyone else's wishes? Then see if = our ideas might converge. Chances are that we could find something that = most users think is pretty good, and many of the rest could very well = live with.